President of Council Kathy McNear called Council to order on March 1, 2000 at 7:00 p.m.

The governmental body and those in attendance recited the pledge of allegiance.

Mr. Knox took roll call. Present were Council members Danbury, Galster, Pollitt, Squires, Vanover, Wilson and McNear.

The minutes of February 16, 2000 were approved with seven affirmative votes.

Presentation of Proclamation and key to the City to Bernice Biddle

Mayor Webster said I feel quite honored. This is probably one of the most enjoyable tasks Iíve ever undertaken since Iíve been Mayor to have the opportunity to present someone a proclamation honoring 100 years on this earth. Mayor Webster read the proclamation and presented a key to the City to Mrs. Biddle:

"WHEREAS, on March 11, 2000, Mrs. Bernice Biddle, a long-time resident of the City of Springdale, will be celebrating her 100th birthday; and

WHEREAS, Mrs. Biddle was born in Feesburg, Ohio, moved to Felicity at age three, then to Elmwood as a teenager, and finally in 1925 moved to Springdale, into the home she has lived in since, as the young bride of Howard Biddle; and

WHEREAS, Mrs. Biddle as the mother of two children, Sue Eades and Roger Biddle, took an active role as PTA President at Springdale School, Girl Scout Leader, and Cub Scout Leader; and

WHEREAS, Mrs. Biddle has served our community in countless ways over the years. She worked as a volunteer for Goodwill and as a friendly visitor at Drake Hospital. She played the piano at the Glenview Boys' Home and was active in the Eastern Star serving as Matron of the Wyoming Chapter. She has taught Vacation Bible School and Child Evangelism classes. She has been a bible teacher at Maple Knoll since 1980, the Grand Marshall of Maple Knoll's The Walk of Ages in 1990, and a volunteer at Maple Knoll for 21 years and still counting.

NOW THEREFORE, I, DOYLE H. WEBSTER, Mayor of the City of Springdale, do hereby proclaim March 11, 2000 as

Mrs. Bernice Biddle Day

in the City of Springdale and commend this observance to our citizens.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Great Seal of the City of Springdale to be affixed this twenty-eighth day of February in the year of Our Lord, Two Thousand.



Mrs. Biddle said thank you. When I heard my name I didnít know whether to run. I got recognition once before for helping the young people of Springdale. Iím happy to be alive naturally and I hope to finish out the year.

Mrs. McNear said Mrs. Biddle told me her secret to longevity was good food, donít eat McDonaldís, clean living and exercise. Congratulations on your birthday.



Peggy Martin, 541 Dickins Drive, Sharonville, State Central Committeewoman for the Ninth Senatorial District of the Ohio Republic Party. Iím here to speak to Springdale City Council as a taxpayer of the 32nd District. I am concerned about the petition that is being circulated for an amendment of the Ohio Constitution that would prevent local taxing of non-residents. I believe that all cities and villages in the 32nd District should work together to make sure that this is defeated. However, I do have a problem with your Mayor endorsing Jim Raussen, who surrounds himself with leaders of the petition. Elected officials in the district asked Mr. Raussen in August and September of 1999 about where he stood on this issue, being that his treasurer at that time was a co-author. He gave no response. Iím concerned that police, fire and life squad services of the whole district will be compromised if Mr. Raussen is elected. I commend your Mayor for going out on a limb to support Mr. Raussen, who couldnít get elected on his own merits after spending three years as a Township Trustee. This district has been hard hit with increases in Hamilton County property tax and the school levy in August. I donít think this district can handle anymore tax increases. I would like the Council and the voters of Springdale to vote for Tawana Keels Simons, who understands the 32nd District. Thank you very much.

Mrs. McNear said we will be voting on a resolution on the topic of the tax.

Dana Zinnicker, 497 Dimmick Avenue said I am here this evening speaking as the designated representative of the Springdale Youth Boosters, where I serve as a vice-president. I am here to address an issue regarding the re-naming of the Ray Manis Menís Softball Tournament. It is our understanding that the Springdale Rec Commission has supported and the Mayor has decided that after 25 years of holding this renown and well-attended softball tournament dedicated to the memory of Ray Manis, who served the youth of Springdale, has decided that this tournament should be renamed as the Springdale Memorial Invitation Tournament. The Springdale Youth Boosters do not support this change. Our concerns are as follows: This tournament is well recognized as the Ray Manis Menís Softball Tournament and is a 25 year old tradition, something that the City of Springdale prides itself upon. The name of the Ray Manis Memorial Tournament was given to the Manis legacy in his memory. To erase this legacy seems to the very least, callous and insensitive. It is not only in memory of Ray Manis and his family, but the former members of the Springdale Youth Organization. For 25 years this tournament has been sponsored, staffed and supported by the Springdale Youth Boosters, which is completely comprised of resident volunteers. It is, in essence, a self-supported activity. Our group was not formally or informally asked, consulted or involved in any decisions that impacted our organizationís planning or preparation for this major event. The secrecy of the proposal, the decision and efforts to carry out the renaming of the tournament, is not the way our City government should be conducted. How can the Recreation Commission simply erase a tribute to a prominent Springdale citizen who served our youth? I found myself personally embarrassed for the City of Springdale that Ms. Manis, at our most recent SYB members meeting was finally informed in front of the entire group, of a decision that was made four months earlier. It was a complete surprise to us and obviously a shock to her. On behalf of the Springdale Youth Boosters Executive Board I strongly urge that City Council preserve the tradition and memory of the Ray Manis Softball Tournament and seek alternative ways to honor the memories of other respected coaches who served the City of Springdale.

Peggy Manis, 12182 Audie Court said I am here representing my mother, Noreen; my aunts, uncles, sister and my children. I am also here to make Council aware of a decision that I was made aware of last night. Mr. Webster and the Recreation Committee decided to change the name of the Ray Manis Memorial Softball Tournament, a tournament that has been in existence for over twenty years. This decision which was made December 7 and according to the minutes of the Recreation Commission, was introduced by Mr. Webster and unanimously supported by the Recreation Commission, which was also supported by Mr. Webster. Last night at the Springdale Youth Boosters meeting we were discussing getting new T-shirts to sell at the tournament when Rob Hormann, who is president of SYB and also a member of the Recreation Committee, informed us of the name change, which is almost three months after the decision was made. After speaking to Mr. Galster, who is also a member of SYB and was present at the meeting, and other Council members, it was clear that Council was uninformed of this decision. How can the Recreation Commission change the name of an SYB sponsored event? I spoke to a gentleman tonight who was involved in the naming of the tournament and he was quite surprised and thought it was not the right thing to do. The reason given for this name change was that prior to and since my dad died there have been six individuals who passed away whose service the Mayor thought should be recognized. The tournament was renamed the Springdale Memorial Invitational Menís Tournament and individuals chosen by the Recreation Committee will be honored with a plaque to be hung in the new Community Center. Everyone can surely agree that there are many individuals of Springdale who should be honored for their contributions to the community, not just for youth sports and a memorial wall is a wonderful idea. However, renaming this event does not affect who we honor for their contributions. For example, Larry Packerís name was put forth as one of the first six individuals to be honored and he well deserves the honor. We recently dedicated a soccer field in Beacon Hills Park in memory of him. Is that now going to be named the Springdale Memorial Soccer Field? Whatís the difference? What about Underwood Park or Ray Norrish Drive? Do we as a community want to have parks and streets, etc. renamed every time we elect a new mayor or someone disagrees with him? Thatís what we are opening ourselves up for if we allow this to happen. My family and I did not even have the courtesy of a telephone call. Were we just to find out about this by reading about it in the next newsletter or Community Center brochure? I would hope that you can look behind the smokescreen and see this for what it clearly is. Mr. Webster and I have been on opposite sides since expansion of this building on many issues. I challenged him last year in the Mayorís race and lost. Thatís not enough. Politics is politics but this is a clear personal, vindictive attack on me and my family and I hope you have enough courage to right this wrong.

Marty Crow, 12182 Audie Court said Iíve been a resident of Springdale for 25 years. I have been married to Peggy for the last fifteen years. Iím not a politic person. Iíve never entered the political game. At most I delivered a few brochures and put some signs up and took them down. I never got involved. That was always her arena and I respected that. After observing all the things that have gone on for the last eight years I just couldnít keep from putting my two cents in here. Iíd like to address two items. One is Ray Manis. I never met Ray. He died long before I ever met Peggy but when I was first dating Peg and getting involved in the Manis Tournament it was unbelievable how many people would come up to me and tell me all about Ray Manis. You can go down any street in this City or go down every street in this City and knock on the doors and ask the person who lives there if they knew Ray Manis, and you will find out on every street there are quite a few people who were either in the same organization he was, socialized with Ray, played on the same team that he played on, helped him coach teams, was the parent of a child that he coached, or as a full-grown adult answering the door, used to be a player of Rayís. If you ask that person what they thought of Ray Manis, they would tell you what a great coach he was, what a great person that he was or what a great player he was, how wonderful he was for the Springdale Youth Organization, how wonderful he was for the City, how wonderful he was as a coach for their child or how wonderful he was as a coach to be playing under. Youíd hear nothing but great things. Thatís all I ever heard about Ray Manis. I sincerely doubt that you would ever hear one negative thing from anybody about Ray Manis. This is all you would have to do to understand that there was a reason why this tournament was named after Ray Manis. There was a reason that this community saw fit to honor this man with the naming of this tournament. It doesnít take a whole lot to understand why they called him Smiley. My point to all this is that Ray Manis does not deserve this. Ray Manis did nothing wrong whatsoever. Itís not Rayís fault that 26 years after his death he has to be the victim of vindictive retribution against his daughter. Thatís how sad this is. This tournament was an immediate hit right away. Itís big. Itís the largest unsanctioned tournament in the midwest, at least one of the largest in the midwest. This has been a tradition in Springdale for a quarter of a century. Take a look around at some of the local communities. They donít have this type of 25 year traditions that go on and on, that is that well known. This is a famous tournament. This is not something that you toss aside. Secondly, I hope to convince you that this is not just a change of ideas. You are going to be told that it was called the Ray Manis Tournament long enough, that thereís other people that we should pick to honor every year for this tournament. Realistically, the more I thought about it, itís not a bad idea. As much as Iíve learned about Ray Manis, I think he would love the idea. But you donít have to eliminate Rayís name to honor somebody else in this City. It can still be called the Ray Manis Tournament and this year we are going to honor whomever you pick, and then you can place that personís name on a Ray Manis honor plaque in the Rec Center. I hope to convince you to see this for what it really is. This is simply a case of vindictive retribution. As Peg said there are a lot of memorials in this City named after different people. There has been no suggestion; thereís been no order; thereís been no discussion on changing the names for any of these. This is a specific target by a specific individual. This Rec Commission Meeting where everything was discussed; Iíd like to remind everybody that the Rec Commission is just an advisory board. Anything coming out of the Rec Commission is still the Mayorís decision. Everyone appointed to the Rec Commission is appointed by the Mayor. It doesnít take a rocket scientist to see what kind of influence was involved here. Also, over the last 25 years thereís been nobody who said letís change the name of the Ray Manis Tournament. There has been no organization, no group. Nobody sat down and thought this idea up, just one individual, just one, a specific individual going after a specific target. I know as elected officials youíve been aware for some time of the animosity directed towards Peggy from the Mayor. Iím not quite sure you understand how deep this runs. It started eight years ago when Peg decided to support Bob Seaman in his election for clerk against Webster. After this Webster was at odds with Peg on virtually every issue. Now personally, this is normal. I consider this normal. This happens in the political arena all the time. You canít enter the political arena without being at odds with somebody over something and it getting personal. It happens locally; it happens nationally. Itís standard course for the political arena. But this issue is outside the political arena. This is a community issue thatís honored a specific individual. Over the last ten years Iíve tried very hard to stay out of it and I have not voiced my opinion. Many people in this town have told me the disparaging things that the Mayor has said about Peggy and I have chosen at this time not to ask these people to come forward and repeat these things, mainly because the vulgarity is extremely surprising. However, in the future, I will consider having these people come forward. I would really like to see how this plays out first. As I said, this has been going on for many years. There has been a recent example. There is a political race going on right now involving Springdale. It is the seat for the State Rep in our district. This particular seat has a tremendous amount of influence on what goes on in this City. Itís a very important seat in a very important election. Tawana Keels Simon is running for this seat. As a member of the Republican Party she asked Webster, who is also a member of the Republican Party for his support. The first thing he asked her was, is Peggy supporting her. When she told him she was he told her he would not support anybody who Peggy supported. You can call Mrs. Simon Keels and ask her yourself. Thatís how deep this obsession runs, people. He doesnít care about the candidates or the issues. All he cares about is being anti-Peggy. Thatís the whole reason for changing this name of the Ray Manis Tournament. Now, Iím asking you see this for what it really is. If there was a legitimate reason for changing the name of this tournament we wouldnít be here. Vindictive retribution is not a good reason for anything. Iím asking you not to let this happen. Itís not right. Iím asking to exercise the authority of your seat and do whatever you can to do the right thing and thatís to keep Ray Manisí name attached to this tournament.

Nell Ratley, 12170 Audie Court said I would like for you to consider Ray Manisí grandchildren whom he never had a chance to know. They are very active in all the sports; theyíre good grandchildren and I think this would hurt them deeply. This is a legacy of their father, a good one that they can always carry with them.

Mayor Webster said I guess it would do no good for me to state publicly that this was not done in retribution to Ms. Manis. Thatís the farthest thing from my mind. I just donít have that hatred that you feel that I have towards you but I donít think this is the time and place to discuss that. My sole purpose for doing this and the chief motivating factor and the catalyst for this was the passing of one Mr. Herb Spangler. I started thinking of all the other people who have contributed a great deal to the youth of this City. First I started just thinking about the coaches and thatís not right. We have other people who have served the City well who also need to be commended. Before we could even get this in place, Iím not sure of the timing, it may have been an oversight on my part but Mrs. Alice Brown passed away. Mrs. Alice Brown was one of the original founders of the FRYS group. We wanted to make sure that the criteria for admitting people and anybody in the community can nominate people, let me make sure you understand that. Itís not just that Rec Commission gets together and decides to put this one in and that one in. The award will be dedicated to those who have extraordinarily given of their time, talent and effort toward the betterment of youth sports in Springdale. Anybody who wants to nominate someone, nominate them. The Parks and Recreation Commission will vote on that. Most people will certainly be elected. Alice Brown I just mentioned. Bill Cummins started the softball program in the City of Springdale and has a six inch plaque hanging on the wall at the Community Center. Mrs. Zinnicker, Mr. Don Coleman, a neighbor of yours and probably a good friend of yours, just passed away last year. What can we do to honor Mr. Coleman? Mr. Packer gave very willingly of his time and effort as a soccer coach and official. Mr. Jim Phelps, in the Sharonville part of Heritage Hill, gave very willingly of his time and effort to coach the youth of Springdale. Mr. John Shullenberger, another softball coach we lost in the last couple of years and Mr. Herb Spangler was the father of soccer. How many parents are sitting here that donít have a child that participates in the soccer program. How do we honor all of these people? My motive was not to trash the name of your father or anything else. I thought that the tournament should be renamed to reflect that it is a memorial tournament for all of the people who have contributed to the youth of Springdale, not just the coaches. Thatís why the tournament has been renamed the Springdale Memorial Invitation Menís Tournament. You can read into this what you want. Iím sure there is nothing I can say. I could talk all night but youíre not going to believe it but thatís the sole motivating purpose behind it. I think we tried to do something very nice. We tried to do something to honor all of the people who have contributed and if you take offense of this, Ms. Manis, Iím terribly sorry about that. I guess Iím really shocked to hear that you do take exception to this. To quote your own words you sat on this dais when we were talking about putting a plaque in this building of all the people who had contributed to this building and your comments were, whatís in a name, whatís in a name? Now youíre telling me there is something in a name or is it just the Manis name? Letís be consistent here. What Iíve tried to do is put together something that is very positive and pays homage to all the people who contribute to the youth of Springdale. The last thing I wanted to do or have attempted to do is detract from your fatherís contribution at all. Your father is one of the original eight people whoís name will go on this plaque. Thatís the Godís honest truth. Thatís all I can do and I do think this is in the purview of the Administration. The Parks and Recreation Department put together the dedication of the Larry Packer Field. That was not done by Council. It was an Administrative matter. This is the same way. It is an Administrative matter and Iím very proud of the fact that weíve done it.

Mr. Danbury said I was hoping we would not get into accusations one way or the other because it was a touchy issue. I played ball against him and everyone knew Smiley. We did name Packer Field and it is Packer Field. Ross Park is named after Hilga Ross and Underwood Field is named for people who have been here a long time and have contributed. Ray Norrish Drive was changed at great expense to the City, businesses, and the people who live there. Obviously there was some confusion on the previous name but it was named after someone who contributed. We do have a lot of people who are instrumental with the development of the City. There was no way with the shear numbers who were coming through here and contributing and passing on, that we can honor everybody in the appropriate manner. We have other softball tournaments. We have swim tournaments. We have a lot of other things. I think Mr. Crow made a good suggestion; have the Ray Manis Tournament this year in honor of the person we are honoring. You talk about tradition. I recall when there was a big debate on the sign we were going to have on this building. It was decided by Council to just put the people up there who were in office when it was open. Then I heard all this talk about tradition. Weíve always put the names of the people who were there when it was first conceptualized and voted on as well as people who were in office when it was open because we wanted to stay with tradition. Right now weíre going back away from tradition. Itís always been the Ray Manis Tournament. There are people from Indiana, Michigan, Tennessee knowing about the Springdale Ray Manis Tournament. Everybody knows the Ray Manis Tournament. I donít know how this is going to negatively impact the City by continuing to have that. I think itís a fine tradition. Iím not necessarily taking sides one way or the other but just looking at it as an athlete whoís always wanted to play. Itís a very good honor there and I think you are going to diminish something that we had for a long time. Letís say we had five people pass on in one year. You can only pick one and that will diminish the other four people and some people may feel slighted. Next year you have other people passing away. I personally donít have any problem keeping it the Ray Manis and this yearís honoree for the Ray Manis trophy or plaque is whomever.

Mr. Galster said I was at the meeting last night when I first heard the news and was extremely uncomfortable. I think if we want to create something new to honor more people or to honor different people, thatís fine. I think Cameron Park is just named after the street or the subdivision. Springdale Memorial Park with a wall with a plaque on it. You can add as many people as you want. You can use the existing concession center wall and make a Springdale Memorial Walk of Fame. I think there are other ways to do it without having to take away an honorarium. That just goes beyond good taste to me. Iím not comfortable doing it. I donít know if Council can pass a resolution that says that things that are named in honor of a particular person, that they should be forever so named. I donít know if itís proper to do that or not. I would be more than willing to bring that forward and probably have a decent rough draft and feel strongly about that. Iíd hate to think of renaming Underwood Park. I hate to think of renaming Packer Park. I think that the people who decide these issues and put names on these, rather it be streets, tournaments, parks, whatever we are naming, that they take into consideration the contributions. Itís not something that you think about and take very lightly. Most of the time you wait until people pass. Look at downtown Cincinnati and Pete Rose Way. He gets banned from baseball but they didnít change the name. They might not have made a very good decision to name a street for somebody who was still living and could do some unknown things. I just think it is untasteful to pull that name that has established that tradition. I have had a team in there for probably 15-20 years myself. It took a while to get through the waiting list process. Itís a team that plays out of Butler County and they asked me when is the Manis Tournament? It is known as the Manis Tournament.

Mr. Wilson asked Mr. Webster, can we still honor everyone without changing the name of the tournament? There was some discussion about each year selecting a specific individual to honor along with it. Is there a reason that we have to change the name of the tournament? Canít we keep it the same and still do the honoring of each individual a year? If we are going to honor a different person each year, why change the name of the main tournament. Just honor an individual each year as I thought we were going to do. I canít understand why we would want to change the name of the tournament if we are going to still honor a different person each time. Why make the change? Iíve been in the City 21 years. Iíve not been as active as some of the members out here. I canít go back with history but to me, it doesnít make sense to change the name when youíre changing the other things such as honoring individuals which is a great idea. Why change the name of the tournament?

Mayor Webster replied no one said we were going to honor a different person each year. That was a suggesting that Mr. Danbury and Mr. Crow made. That was not part of the proposal. The people who are elected into it are going to be honored by the fact that they now are part of this tournament. Itís a memorial tournament for all the benefit of Springdale sports. Itís a memorial invitational tournament. They will be honored by a new plaque going inside the Community Center so their name is not going to be mentioned each year as part of the tournament. Weíd like to honor everybody equally. I donít think if you have a tournament named the Ray Manis Softball Tournament and you have a plaque on the wall for everybody else, howís that equal? Explain that to me, please.

Mr. Wilson responded I question changing the name of the tournament. Thatís like changing Ray Norrish Drive or Ross Park or changing Packer Park. You can still honor individuals within the confines without changing the name of the tournament. Itís still a memorial tournament. We can decide whatever size plaque we want. If we as a Council or you as the Parks and Recreation Commission decide youíre going to put a 12 inch plaque up every year honoring a different coach or person who has participated in youth sports, we can still do that. We can still honor everyone without changing the name. I donít want to get into a personal thing but to me, I would not feel comfortable changing the name for the purpose of honoring other individuals when you are going to honor them and can honor them without changing the name.

Mr. Danbury said I thought originally you were thinking about the Herb Spanglers and everybody. I donít know how changing the name from the Manis Memorial Tournament to the Memorial Tournament how people will think of Herb Spangler or anybody else. I think a suggestion would be to keep the Manis Tournament in itself and name the Rec Center the Memorial Rec Center. A lot of these people may not have had activity with the softball group. You mentioned Herb Spangler was the father of soccer in Springdale. Then we could have plaques or any kind of identification for these peopleís contribution. Itís not necessarily just people who contributed to youth sports. There are a lot of people involved in church groups and other aspects of the community. It could be a hall of fame of the City. Changing it from Ray Manis Memorial to Memorial you are still not honoring Herb Spangler or anyone else that you mentioned. We can do that with the Rec Center.

Mayor Webster said thank you for your comments, Mr. Danbury, Mr. Wilson and Mr. Galster too. Let me just correct you on one thing, Mr. Danbury, it has not always been the Ray Manis Tournament. The first few years of the tournament it was just the Springdale Menís Tournament. There was no history. No official action was taken by the Administration, by Council or the Parks and Recreation Commission or for that matter, the Youth Sports Group to change the name to Ray Manis Tournament. One year it was the Springdale Menís Tournament and the next year itís the Ray Manis Memorial Tournament. Someone evidently came up with the idea and they did it but thereís certainly no record of that. Weíve researched that and there is none. You talk about the history of the thing and going down every street and knocking on every door. Well, I think you ought to walk the walk before you talk about knocking on every door. Iíve knocked on every door in the City and the Ray Manis Tournament is not a by-word in this City. There are people in this City who donít know who Mr. Manis is and Iím not being disrespectful to your father but there are people who donít know the name, just as Iím sure there are people who donít know who Ray Norrish is or Larry Packer. In time people forget. Iíve talked to the tournament director and the name recognition is not a problem. We didnít have the tournament last year. I told Gary Thompson, the tournament director, if you feel it is necessary to make the connection between the tournament we had two years ago and the one weíre having this year, then state in the invitation that it is formerly the Ray Manis Tournament so if there is anyone hanging out there waiting for the Manis Tournament, theyíre going to get the invitation and know that it is the same tournament. His comment was the name recognition was not a problem.

Mr. Galster asked is it proper that a Council person can introduce a resolution at any time or do I need to go through a proper channel?

Mr. Schneider answered any member of Council has the right to request any legislation at any time and Iíll certainly prepare it usually for the next meeting.

Mr. Galster asked is there a problem if I prepared one and I read it?

Mr. Schneider said that would be up to the President of Council to add it to the agenda or by majority vote of Council to edit the agenda.

Mr. Galster stated I guess I can read it and then you can decided if you want to take action on it.


Whereas, past, present and future Springdale City Councils have had and may find it fitting to bestow the honor of having events, parks, streets and other honorariums named after past and/or present citizens of the City of Springdale and

Whereas, such action taken by past, present and future Springdale City Councils is done so to honor the memory, contributions and impact of said citizens on the City of Springdale, Ohio and

Whereas, these bestowments of honor are designed to forever remember these citizens for their contributions to the history and character of Springdale, Ohio;

Now, therefore, be it resolved by the Council of the City of Springdale, Ohio members thereto concurring:

Section 1. That the City Council of the City of Springdale finds it fitting and proper to bestow the honor of having events, parks, streets, and other honorariums named after prominent members of the City of Springdale.

Section 2. Establishment of these long standing traditions are a benefit to the City of Springdale.

Section 3. That the City Council of the City of Springdale does take great care in selecting the individuals that they wish to bestow this honor upon (Underwood Park, Ray Norrish Drive, Ray Manis Softball Tournament, Packer Field) and therefore, wish that these events, parks, streets and other honorariums so named shall continue to carry the name of the honored citizen until the end of time.

Section 4. That this resolution shall take effect and be in force after the earliest period allowed by law.

Mrs. McNear said I think this is a very emotionally charged issue and Ms. Manis knows the rules of Council and I know itís emotional. Thatís probably why she has spoken out several times out of turn. Considering the fact that youíve just written this and it hasnít been looked at by our Law Director, I think we should have it looked at and bring it up at the next meeting.

Mayor Webster said Iíd like to say thank you to all the people who spoke. We appreciate your comments and thanks for coming.

Presentation - Charter Revision - Marge Boice

Mrs. Boice said Iím happy to be here tonight and Iíve worked on a lot of committees over the years. I am very enthused about this committee. We have already had two meetings. They come to work. Nobody is hesitant about expressing their views. We were given quite a number of things to cover as was reported by Judy Simmons at the last meeting. I was unable to attend and I want to publicly thank Judy for filling in for me. The other committee members are Beth Chavies, Judy Simmons, Don Fish and Edgar Smith. We had an organizational meeting in January which Judy reported on. We have just come off the meeting of February 22. Mr. Schneider was in attendance because we felt we needed some legal counsel and I think we are going to continue to need legal counsel. That evening we turned over three items after discussion. I have given them to Ken for drafting. Those items are the blanket purchase orders change of the wording "not excluding three months" to be deleted; the exempting the municipal purchases from up to $1,000 to up to $3,000 from certification requirement. We have asked that Ken combine that draft in one Charter change because both fall under Article 7, financial item f. You know how it is when youíre coming into the polls. You donít want all these Charter changes. You want them combined. It will be much better. We also have asked him to bring in the draft on the Council membership on Planning Commission. It is our hope to have these to you for your first meeting in April. We know you have to work under deadlines to get these down to the Board of Elections and we want to be absolutely sure that you are not rushed because we donít want to hear that Charter Revision did not get that to us. We are hoping to complete our work and have everything in your hands by July. I have cautioned the committee that we are only a recommending committee and that you may not always agree with what we recommend and that you certainly have the right to alter it. In connection with the review of the Council membership on Planning Commission many questions came up. It had been pointed out that very often members are not desirous of being on Planning Commission, or experienced in those areas. My feeling is if you are going to run or hold elective office in this City you had better be ready to do whatever youíre asked to do and if you donít know how to do it you better find out how to do it. BZA and Planning Commission are the most cherished appointments. Iíve never known anybody who wanted to turn them down. None of us are real fond of Rules and Laws or Public Relations but if that is what youíre asked to do, you are elected by your constituency and thatís what you do. Edgar Smith came up with the idea that maybe in the future you could do a committee description to hand out to prospective people running for Council who might take a look at what these committees comprise, what they entail and that may help them make their decision as to if they really want to run. Those three items we hope to have to you by the April meeting.

Moving on, Ken is researching the issue of a temporary replacement for Clerk of Council. We have come up with a number of suggestions of whom might fill in for that position but Ken wants to check on the legalities of it. Our thoughts were the Finance Officer or the City Administrator. Ken is bringing drafts from other cities on disaster funding to see exactly what they are doing in that line. We do not anticipate those two items getting to you until the July deadline that our committee is mentally setting. You are not going to get redistricting that quickly. I have read this paragraph with the 15%, 25% and the 10% four times but this is just ridiculous. One line jumped out at me, "the territory of any district shall never be divided from nor non-contiguous with the balance of the territory of the district." I would say weíre in a little trouble right there, right now. Judy Simmons volunteered that after the primary election she is going to get the figures and fool around with the percentages and see where we are falling into things. There is also a new census track. Ken is going to be working on that also. The last time we did redistricting it became a political football. There were public meetings, challenges of gerrymandering. We are thinking we would like to see this removed from Council completely. It says nowhere in the Charter that the at-large members do it. It has just always been done that way because it wouldnít seem proper for the district people. We are thinking of taking it out of the political realm and having a separate committee to handle redistricting. We have some big errors that need to be cleaned up.

Mrs. Boice also said I would like to thank Council for the signs that introduce you to Springdale Terrace which is the heart of Springdale. I watched the last Council meeting the other night with great interest and by all means give yourself a raise. Itís been a long time. With the time spent running around the community, it is well deserved. I think you do need to keep up with what other communities have done. Itís been two years and two months since I left here. I still have not seen a history published. Are you going to? If you say yes, thatís fine, I can wait. Or tell me no, youíre not going to so I can give up on it.

Mrs. McNear said I think your idea about redistricting is an excellent idea, to make a new committee. Since Rules and Laws doesnít get that much thrown to them Iím sure Mr. Wilson and Mr. Galster will be glad to take a look at those items you mentioned.

Mr. Danbury asked about the Clerk of Council position. Mrs. Boice replied Ed brought this forth when he was on vacation. In the event he would become ill and a person ought to be able to take a two week vacation without worrying, we need someone to step in who is well aware of the finances of this City. Weíre looking into the legalities. The first thought was perhaps the Finance Committee Chairman but we put that aside because there is that legislative/administrative division. We thought of the Tax Commissioner who is the Finance Officer of the City, might be a good choice. We want several names because you are in a transition period right now. We thought of the City Administrator also.

Mr. Danbury said I donít want to open up another can of worms about qualifications but we have seven Council people and we have checks and balances with ourselves. One officer was denied the right to run for County Sheriff against Simon Leis because he didnít have the right qualifications. I was wondering if we could put some type of qualifications such as two years of budget management or something. The last two elections Ed has run unopposed. Iím not taking anything away from him but had he not decided to run or heís transferred out of the City we may have an election where one person runs who is eighteen years old and a registered voter. Whether or not he/she is qualified, he/she would be in that position. There really are no checks or balances and we would be stuck with that person for four years. If there was any way we could put some type of qualifications for that particular office.

Mrs. Boice replied I know where you are coming from but you remember my classic remark when I said who of us up here had to pass a qualifications test. I see where youíre coming from. Yes, we want someone with a financial background. If you are going to set qualifications for one elective office, legally I think you would have to set it for every single one.

Mr. Danbury said I respect your opinion but I totally disagree with you. We canít tell Ed what to do. We canít check what heís doing. We might not have the proper follow through or the brains or whatever, but we have six other people voting with us or against us. The qualifications for a Council person is basically having good people skills hopefully and common sense. When you talk about what Ed does, thatís very different and there are no checks and balances, and you are stuck with that person for four years.

Mrs. Boice responded I donít disagree with where you are coming from but I think you are opening a can of worms. To me that would be prejudicial that for one office in the City you have to hold a BA or a Masters, where in another office you donít. Fortunately we have always been blessed with people who had the skills. Ken, will you check into that while you are researching the legality of whom we can appoint in Edís absence. This is strictly the Finance end. We know how someone takes over and reads the ordinances.

Mr. Danbury said with that said Iím not after Ed being removed. Iím just trying to use a safeguard for the future.

Ms. Pollitt asked do you need any resources on the redistricting issue?

Mrs. Boice said Judy is going to try to get some of the figures together after the next primary and sheís an engineer. This is a cracker jack committee. Beth Chavies is so concise and to the point with her remarks. Don Fish is right in there with his ideas and Edgar has had a lot of experience with management. You are giving me far too much credit when you say you knew things would get done.

Ms. Pollitt asked may we come as observers?

Mrs. Boice replied by all means, itís an open meeting. I file my report with Marty ten days ahead.

Mr. Wilson said I tend to agree with Randy on the Clerk of Council/Finance from the standpoint that it is a specific responsibility unlike Council. I would like to see someone who is considered for that position have some of the financial skills that are required for that position. It may be minimum. So far everyone who has run for that position has had the qualifications in that area. I think we need to emphasize the criteria we look for and perhaps that will eliminate the eighteen year old or even the adult who just throws his hat in the ring who is not qualified.

Mrs. Boice said duly noted. We will get Ken to review it because legally if we are calling it out for one we may have to call it out for all.

Mr. Osborn said I heard the City Administratorís title in the list of people considered as an interim replacement for the Clerk of Council/Finance Director. I would point out Iím already a signator to purchase orders and with the authorization of the Mayor, to contracts. In his absence I sign for the Mayor. I think it would be improper to assume that this same position could serve as a back up for the Finance Director. It probably wouldnít be good planning having one person back up two positions.

Mrs. Boice answered weíll certainly take that under advisement and Iím scratching your name right now.

Mr. Knox stated what engendered my bringing this to the committeeís attention is the fact that we burned up the fax wires between here and New Zealand and Australia last September and October in order to satisfy the provisions of the Charter. It worked out fine but what happens if I end up in a hospital or I go on a vacation where there isnít fax capability. The Mayorís situation is covered but the Finance Directorís isnít. There must be two signatures on purchase orders, either the Mayor or City Administrator and in all cases, the Finance Directorís so this could be a problem for the City and thatís why I brought it up. We hope to have a decision on the new Tax Commissioner by the next meeting. To Mr. Danburyís comment, you have the capability and every resident of this City has the capability of checking everything we do in our office. Our records are totally open. Every month you get a trial balance. You said you may not be able to check what we do. If you have any questions, come in and weíll talk about it.

Mr. Danbury said itís not checking. There are opportunities for anybody to check anything at any time. In any company there are people who are incompetent or dishonest, people who donít know what they are doing. We may catch it after the fact. I think itís a safeguard for us that the person who would eventually replace you would have some qualifications. There are people who are elected who have no idea what they are doing and sometimes they can cover up because they have people who can do everything for them. If I had a company that had as much money go through the system as we do, I would want someone who has a little bit of background. The only qualification to any of these jobs is that you are a voter and put your name on the ballot. If you are the only person who applies for that position, itís yours. We had three Council people do that this time. In your position I think itís very important to have at least some experience dealing with budgets and knowing what they are doing.

Mr. Knox responded no one decries the fact that people arenít running for office more than I do. I have been complaining about that for a long time. The constitution of the State of Ohio says the Elected Treasurer of this state must be an elector in the State of Ohio eighteen years of age. In the County of Hamilton it says the Auditor of the County must be an elector eighteen years of age who presides in Hamilton County. Are we going to do more than the State and County?

Mr. Danbury asked if we are a Charter city, can we? If we elected a County Sheriff you wouldnít want the town drunk to do it. Iím just saying if there was only one person who did it and that was the one.

Mrs. McNear asked has there been any thought given of having the Vice-President of Council do it since that person replaces the Clerk in his absence, or having somebody from Council elected to that position?

Mrs. Boice replied we discussed that but even though Council goes through all the budget, we felt that possibly any member of Council may not have that financial grasp that might be needed in the event that there might be a sustained illness or something like that. We did feel it had to be somebody from within who knew what was going on. We are at a standstill until we understand legally who can do this because there has to be some co-signing.

Mrs. Boice asked whoever runs unopposed. I never ran unopposed once in five terms. You people are lucky; enjoy it.

Mr. Vanover said, Mrs. Boice, I appreciate the work you are doing. I think that is probably one of the most important committees that does not get the recognition because it deals with the very essence of our City operation. Iíve argued for a while that we tended to be reactive instead of proactive at times. I know several members of that group and it definitely has the makings of a stellar group.

Mr. Squires said we seem to be sitting here asking ourselves if we can set criteria for elected officials. As a Charter city maybe we can, maybe we canít. As a school boy I learned if you just have to be a qualified voter, etc., etc., Iím not sure we can set criteria. Assuming that we canít, is it possible to consider changing the Charter and have Council hire a Clerk of Council, and therefore, we would have all the criteria in front of us and weíd have whom we want? But even if that be the case, if that person should become ill or indisposed, weíre right back to what Mrs. Boice is saying. Perhaps another member of Council such as the Vice-President could do it.

Mrs. Boice stated whoever you hire, Mr. Squires, will not work quite as cheaply as the elected clerk. I will take Councilís comments back to the committee, but we need to know the legalities before we can take it much further.

Mayor Webster said I think you assigned the issue to the right place. I think it has to come from Ken. I think he has researched that before and I think when he goes back to his files he will find it and reissue it. You canít set criteria for office. I donít care if we are home rule Charter, where do you draw the line. First you are going to say you have to have certain criteria to run for that office, then you have certain criteria for this office, then maybe you want to set criteria for the people who vote. You canít do that. If some incompetent person happens to get elected, thereís always the ability to recall the person. The Charter is very clear. You can be recalled for malfeasance, nonfeasance and misfeasance. The Charter has the mechanism to correct the situation you are talking about. Iím going to be absolutely shocked if Mr. Schneider comes back and says you can set criteria on that office.

Mr. Danbury said, what made me think of that was an article this morning. A candidate was denied the ability to run against Si Leis because he did not meet the requirements of that job as an elected official. Evidently they have something in place and I thought it may be something to investigate.

Mrs. Boice responded the committee will look into it.

Mayor Webster said the last time we looked into this I recall there are a handful of offices for the State, such as attorney general, prosecuting attorneys, maybe some judgeships, etc. where you have to have a law background so you have to have a minimum requirement. When you get past that, then there isnít.

Mrs. McNear asked Mr. Parham to respond to Mrs. Boice about the history of the City.

Mr. Osborn said Iíd like to talk about that, primarily just to refresh Councilís memory that we discussed this two or three months ago. The conclusion was that we were not going to pursue any additional writing of the history; that we felt the history written through the period that existed at the time Mrs. Boice was on Council was appropriate in terms of being historic. I think most of us would agree that the most recent addition to that history is not ready to be part of our history. I thought the conclusion on Councilís part was that we were going to resign ourselves to the fact that weíd wait a few more years to add that. At the same time there is an easy access to the history on the internet. I use it a lot. I made a speech to the Chamber of Commerce a few weeks ago and took the opportunity to research the history of Springfield Pike, all the way back to when it was an Indian trail, the roll it played in transportation, etc. Not everyone has access to the internet but it is accessible to a great part of our community.

Mrs. McNear stated thatís what I recall too. Were we going to get prices on that?

Mayor Webster replied we did that. We asked Council if you wanted to hire another historian and rewrite the last ten years. We have no decision on that.

Mr. Galster asked is the history available on disk?

Mr. Osborn replied it could be. Itís not presently on disk but it could be put on CD-ROM.

Ms. Pollitt said I used the history to give a speech to my church group. I read it cover to cover and thoroughly enjoyed it. I saw some corrections that I would like to see made as far as grammar and punctuation. Iíd be more than happy to do a proof of that if youíd like and Iíd like to see us get this printed if we agreed to knock off the last ten years and let that sit for a while.

Mayor Webster said I think that sentiment was expressed by some people. I think some people wanted to see that in but they wanted to see it rewritten. The person who wrote the last ten years did not do a good job. If you are looking for a good easy break and I know itís hard to write history in recent events but what better break point for our history than the new millennium.

Mrs. McNear said I think most people just want to forget about that last section and go forward. Council, do you want to get prices on this and print it?

Mayor Webster responded we have done that.

Mr. Osborn suggested we bring the information to you. We took those proposals quite a number of years ago. The party we took them through is no longer with the Historical Society. The Historical Society was going to serve as our publisher in order to save costs and that position has been eliminated from the Historical Society. Weíll probably have to go back and reconstruct some proposals.

Mrs. McNear stated as soon as the prices are available, why donít we bring the information to Council and then perhaps bring it in at the meeting following that one.

Council took a short recess.


Mr. Vanover made a motion to adopt and Ms. Pollitt seconded.

Mr. Wilson said I have given this a lot of thought and have talked to a lot of residents, all of whom said we deserve a raise, a few of whom questioned the percentage. I feel uncomfortable with a raise of that nature, especially in view of the fact that there is no process in place for future increases. I was fortunate enough to speak to a Council person from Sharonville and he mentioned what his salary was and said his increase was tied into the County Commissionersí raises at 3% or 3.5% a year. I would feel comfortable with a lower percentage to start and a process in place where the position would get incremental increases every year or two years so this situation does not occur again, when after 15 years we are looking at a 50% raise. There were very few people who opposed it. Most people said take it, you deserve it, especially due to the fact that we have not had a raise in 15 year. I just personally feel uncomfortable about the percentage and the fact that there is no process in place for future raises, which means next year, next five years, ten years, whatever, weíll go through the same process again.

Mr. Danbury said I donít want to steal the Mayorís thunder but I know he brought up that a separate ordinance should be brought in in the future to deal with that same issue. While weíre discussing that, this ordinance tonight deals with our compensation, I think we should also look at the boards and commissions because they havenít had any increases in some time. I think there should be an across the board for everybody. My initial reaction from citizens has basically been one of shock. Everyone is shocked that we would want a 50% increase. Then you explain that we havenít had an increase since Reagan was in office. Then you explain that even with the increase we would still be below Sharonville, Blue Ash and a few other communities and they are shocked that we waited so long. Iíve not found one person who has said we donít deserve it. A very small minority of the people felt we do need it and said vote for it right now.

I do tend to agree with a small minority who says you should vote for the office so I would like to make a motion to amend that this would come into effect not immediately but when our terms are up. If this had come about last year I would have voted for it and the people who were just elected would have gotten an increase when they took the oath of office on December 1. I realize the inequities and I threw this out to everybody. Thereís no guarantees that I or the other district people are going to be sitting here next time. They may choose not to run again or may not be returned. If there is an increase, somebody is going to get two years and somebody four years.

Mr. Galster seconded.

Mr. Vanover said Iíve made the statement before and I will make it again. It is a precarious situation. Weíre in a unique situation to deal with this. I have talked with past Council members and they themselves have said itís a dirty job and nobody likes to do it. I will be the first one up for re-election. If you tie that to the office, the districts will be making more than the at-large and if I were an at-large I would really consider that a slap in the face that my time and effort is anything less. If we are going to do it, letís do it across the board. You made a point, Randy, and I think the statement needs to be made, weíre not doing this just for ourselves. Weíre doing this for the position itself. There is no guarantee that I will be here in two years. Letís clear the air. The real focus is that we are doing this for this position, not for the individual. We are just filling a position and not our pockets.

Mrs. McNear said I talked to one resident and he said to me, I think youíre stupid. Who would do the same job today for the same pay that they did fourteen or fifteen years ago. I said certainly not me. It is a dirty job. Nobody wants to vote themselves a raise. I know every time the senators vote themselves a raise we call them all kinds of disparaging names. But if we donít stand up and do this, itís going to go another four or five years. I think we just need to do it. Of all the people I talked to very few had negative comments. I had one person make a comment about the in-term thing and I said at any time we have somebody in term, unless we do what Mr. Danbury suggests. It expires with the position and then we have the disparity of people making different amounts of money on Council. I will not be voting for this.

Mayor Webster said itís hard to judge what comments are appropriate since we are supposed to restrict them to this issue. I have a couple of letters here that allude to the disparity in pay, etc. I really would like to respond to Mr. Wilsonís comments about the on-going aspects of this. If you look at the survey, Mr. Wilson, the two highest paid communities are Harrison and Sharonville. The two communities in Hamilton County that have their pay tied to the County Commissioners are Harrison and Sharonville. Therefore, I donít particularly like that approach. As distasteful as this is, Iíd rather see us have to go through this than automatically sneak it through. If we sneak it through, we had to take it because the Commissioners got one. The Commissioners have theirs tied to the State Legislature. So itís a cascading effect. I think itís a back door way to do it. I donít think itís right. Everything weíve done here has been open and above board. TV and the papers have been very privy to what we are doing and I donít know how much more open we could be. Weíve openly solicited comments from our residents and Iíve gotten a few and Iím sure all of you have. As for an on-going effort, as soon as this issue is resolved one way or the other, I would like to see Council consider another ordinance that takes effect 12/01/03 so that none of the people sitting here would be guaranteed to receive that, something like maybe another 10%, which would come out to 2 Ĺ% a year, compounded it would be less than that. and Iím sure thatís less than what we will be giving our people over time. If we do that then hopefully the people who get the benefit of that will do the same thing for the people who will take office in 12/01/07. At least there would be a conscientious effort. It wouldnít be automatic. When we bring in legislation for 12/01/03 we should certainly look at the boards and commissioners also.

Mr. Wilson said I mentioned the County Commissioners as what Sharonville did and my last comment was that we should have a process in place where we would get raises. If we decide we donít want to use the County Commissionersí avenue we can choose another. But there should be a process in place so that voting ourselves a raise will not be an issue because it will be a process in place that we get incremental increases, be it yearly or every two years or every four year. I brought up the County Commissioners because the person I spoke with in Sharonville said thatís what they do. Iím not saying I agree with it. Iím throwing it out as something that another community does.

Mr. Galster said federal judges go through it all the time where they are not elected at the same time and get increases at different times. Somebody enacted legislation years ago that said Congress will get an automatic cost of living raise every year but they have to vote to accept it. So every year Congress gets an ordinance before them that says you are okay to get a raise equal to this amount of dollars. They didnít vote for it; somebody else did. They have to decide if they are going to accept it. After years they finally accepted one and everyone got upset over the fact that it seemed like they were voting themselves a raise. They didnít do it. The mechanism was in place and they exercised it for the first time in seven years. That to me is still an okay thing. If we want to tie to a percentage of the County Commissioners but then it doesnít happen unless Council votes to accept it, then thatís fine with me. Then it doesnít start going on a runaway train to the highest rate in Hamilton County. I still get back to the fact that, like Randy says, I donít think we should be voting ourselves a raise. To me that's not proper. There was some discussion that it was borderline. I know that our Law Director explained that itís not borderline from a legal standpoint but to me, it's borderline from an ethical standpoint. Iím comfortable with having the steps. Iím the one who wonít get it the soonest being an at-large person but Iím comfortable with that because at least weíre doing it the right way.

Mr. Knox said a little while ago we had a discussion about precedent. Now weíre hearing about the right way. If we do it that way, it will be the first time in the history of this City that it was done. Every other time it was done exactly the way it is being proposed.

Mr. Galster said correction. Itís never been done exactly the way itís being proposed today. No other time has it been done in the middle of everybodyís term. Itís always been brought forth before at least four Council people were up for election so itís never been done like this. There was no sitting Council that voted for everybody on that Council or every elected official to get a raise, never in this Cityís history.

Ms. Pollitt said as I stated at the last meeting I was uncomfortable with the different pay increments on Council and Iím going to state that again. Iím not going to support your amendment.

Mr. Knox said the history of this was that the ordinance was brought in July 1969 and the pay raise was effective December 1.

Mr. Galster responded that was before there were ethic laws.

Mr. Knox said the ethics law states that this is not supposed to put undo influence on a member of Council. That doesnít apply here. Council voted a raise in July 1969 and the pay raise was effective December 1.

Mr. Galster responded that was before there were ethic laws.

Mr. Knox said the ethics law states that this is not supposed to put undo influence on a member of Council. That doesnít apply here. You said it doesnít happen. I have numbers to show that it happened five times. So if you want to construe it that way, fine, but I think itís a misrepresentation of the facts.

Mr. Galster said for clarification, it was done before 1973 prior to having the ethics law, but everyone weíve done since there has been a State of Ohio Ethics Commission has been done before an election of at least four Council people.

Mr. Knox said suddenly we are hearing about the election of four Council people. Whatís the difference between that and three Council people? Is four a magic number? Itís been done this way every time. You can count three or you canít count four but itís been done this way every time.

Mr. Schneider said the Ethics Commission had, based on the Ethics Law, determined that it would be in violation from the time that commission went into functioning all the way up to the Court of Appeals in the case I mentioned previously. It ruled that that interpretation by the Ethics Commission was incorrect and that their interpretation of that section of the State Code was not correct. In fact, it would not be a taking something for influence, in essence, the way they were interpreting someone giving himself/herself a pay raise during their term. The Court of Appeals went directly opposite of that. I thought I stated here that the interpretation given by me as Law Director, which Iíve been 25 years, I always said no, based on that interpretation because you are in jeopardy of the law by the Ethics Commission. I did reverse that standing of 25 years when that question came up this time because the court has interpreted that section of the code, merely expressing that it would not be in violation of the Ethics Code. Iím just clarifying that from a legal standpoint. I think thatís consistent with what Mr. Galster commented earlier. I just wanted to explain that in a little more detail so that everyone is aware of it and the press is as well because the press has covered this. The reporter from the Enquirer has covered this extensively and she and I have had extensive discussions on what the legal ramifications were and she has done a very thorough job of delving into it and understanding it so I didnít want any confusion from a legal standpoint.

Mr. Vanover asked arenít federal judges appointed for life?

Mr. Schneider replied yes.

The motion to amend failed with a 3-4 vote. Voting no were Ms. Pollitt, Mr. Squires, Mr. Vanover and Mrs. McNear.

Mayor Webster said he had an e-mail from Mr. John Hedger on Smiley in support of what we are doing and a phone call from a resident on Rose Lane who was embarrassed when our salaries were published in the paper to find out that her public officials earned so little. A neighbor approached me and said he didnít think 50% was enough and the only condition in which he would not approve it was if the City had severe budget restraints. At that point he thought it would be irresponsible. I have two letters Iíd like to read. I also had a phone call from a resident on Lafayette and a phone call from a resident on Cameron. Both said they thought it was long overdue and they had no problems with us taking it in office. Several board and commission members felt the same way. Unsolicited comments from co-workers after it was explained thought it was the proper thing to do.

"Mayor Webster: Iíve been watching the TV version of the February 2 Council meeting and I couldnít understand why you all agonized so much over giving yourselves a pay increase. Springdaleís Council shouldnít take a back seat to any of the cities you mentioned. You folks deserve pay parity with any of them and you neednít be tied to Hamilton County Commissioners, nor does it need to be a ballot item. After my property tax went up 35% this year there are a few things Iíd like to tie to the County Commissioners. Iíve lived in Springdale for about 33 years and enjoy a well run city with free garbage collection for a long, long time. I personally feel itís Councilís responsibility to keep their salaries in line with other cities in the area. I also believe any Council member who doesnít believe he/she is worth the higher pay shouldnít be on Council. Any time you have control over what you get paid it falls back to the old adage, "itís a dirty job but somebodyís got to do it." No reasonable person could possibly object to you taking this action. This isnít going to cost your constituents one dime extra. I repeat, no reasonable person could object. As for the news media coverage, you should emphasize the fact that you presently trail the other cities by 50% or more and you are bringing Springdale up close to parity with them. Itís not necessary to place emphasis on the amount of the increase, just how far behind you presently are. It also seems reasonable for all Council members to receive the same pay. That should help maintain harmony within the group. I believe I heard it has been fourteen years since the last Council raise. Shame on your predecessors. Just wanted to express an opinion that it is a responsible act, not an irresponsible act. Go for it. Max Leichty, 133 Rosetta Court"

"22 February 2000 Just a short note Ė take the raise all the time you people take to do this stuff (run the city) you earn it. We have a terrific run city. Grade AAA plus: fire, rescue, police, city street department, trash pick-up, snow removal people (probably best in state, if not in U.S.) (drive thru some of the surrounding towns, after it snows. To most of the people that say you should not have a raise Ė you ask them if they have doubled their salary in the last 14 years. Iím sure they have.

I have only 2 gripes (my opinion only). I think city building looks goofy on outside. Maybe rec center could have just been re-vamped. Not all the millions to do it. But weíve got it or will have it shortly. A very happy homeowner, in same place since 1972, about 30 years. Jim and Jeanie Campbell, 956 Castro"

Mr. Galster made a motion to amend Ordinance 10-2000 to take effect 12/01/03. Mr. Danbury seconded.

The motion failed 3-4. Voting no were Ms. Pollitt, Mr. Squires, Mr. Vanover and Mrs. McNear.

Ms. Pollitt said Iíve done a lot of thinking. I talked to neighbors and other residents. When we go into executive session to talk about real estate acquisition or personnel issues we rely on Mr. Schneider. Any time we have a question as you have witnessed to night we refer back to Mr. Schneider. Itís the same thing with our engineers. We donít attempt to build our own roads. We use the expertise of the people we have placed in that position to assist us. If Mr. Schneider says we are able to do this, I trust his confidence, education and experience in every other manner. I canít see why I shouldnít trust him in this manner so Iím going to be able to vote for this with confidence.

Mr. Danbury said I donít think itís a question of legality. Mr. Galster has used the term borderline ethical. I just know that I was incensed when Congress voted themselves a raise after midnight after the reporters took off. Itís just a decision each of us has to decide. Thereís no right or wrong. There are options of no raise, immediate raise, etc.

Mr. Galster said thereís a difference between laws and ethics to me. I understand that Mr. Schneider can tell us we can probably win the case as he understands the law right now, but that doesnít necessarily mean itís right or wrong. I know this will just delay it a little longer but I would like to make a motion to amend Section 6 to have the effective date be after it is approved by a majority of the electorate of the City of Springdale.

The motion failed for a lack of a second.

Mr. Wilson said, Mr. Webster, you mentioned a resolution for other boards and commissions and also for Council. Is there a concern on your behalf in not wanting to put that amendment for incremental increases in this ordinance? This looks like weíre doing half our job here.

Mayor Webster responded no, I donít have a problem. It just seemed that there were so many issues outstanding on this I just didnít want to convolute it. I thought it would be more clear if we would just dispose of this one and then move on to the next one.

Mrs. McNear said I would rather see the other two issues come in under separate ordinances. I would hate to see something pass or fail because you favor one thing and not the other. This one is complex enough without the other issues although I think we need to look at the others and I think it should be in short order.

Mr. Squires said I think we have to take care of the business before us. Then take care of the other commissions on a separate issue.

Ordinance 10-2000 passed with four affirmative votes. Mr. Danbury, Mr. Galster and Mr. Wilson voted no.


Mr. Danbury made a motion to adopt and Mr. Wilson seconded.

Mr. Danbury asked do you have any idea when this work will be done?

Mr. Parham replied no, as soon as the ordinance was passed we were going to get back with Mr. Karle at the Recreation Center so that he could contact Williams and they can begin to order the material. As quickly as weather permitting they will start the work.

Ordinance 12-2000 passed with seven affirmative votes.


Mr. Squires made a motion to adopt and Mr. Vanover seconded.

Mr. Osborn said attached to your packet of material for the Council meeting you will find a substitute exhibit for this ordinance. There were a couple of issues that we wanted to clear up administratively. The original draft of the attachment that was distributed at the last meeting had a $2000 fee for site plan review and $2000 for final plan review. Thatís the same process. We have combined that into a single item titled site development plan review. The second item is the addition of two sentences in the paragraph following the fees. Itís just ahead of the last sentence. The two new sentences read "for those projects where the City costs are estimated to be less than $500 no deposit may be required. In such cases the Cityís costs may be recovered by billing the developer. This language was taken directly from the current language that deals with these deposits and we prefer to keep that language in place because if we have someone who comes in with a very small project like adding a passage door to the side of a building, it will require a very limited amount of planning time. It doesnít seem right to ask them to deposit a $2000 fee for a job that will cost us hundreds of dollars and tie up their money so weíd like to leave that flexibility in there. I think the reason for these changes is that the original draft you saw was put together by our consultant and frankly, with the other issues we were dealing with, they slipped by the Building Official. In our discussion he would join me in recommending the changes that were submitted to you with the packet.

Mrs. McNear said last week when we first had the letter from the Planning Commission I brought up the $50 variance fee for residents. I said that went against everything we had been working towards with the elimination of fees. Mr. Schneider, is there a problem with eliminating a fee for residents if we are charging businesses?

Mr. Schneider said you have to have separate and distinct groups and Iím not sure if that is adequate. You have to treat all similar classifications equally. Iím not sure that a business is a distinction for that purpose. I donít think you can treat one set of owners differently than you treat others.

Mr. Galster said if we look at the new Zoning Code single household residential unit as one classification, multi-family as another one. There are distinctions as far as building heights, setbacks, how close buildings can be together, basically a complete chapter that is different once you get out of the residential area.

Mr. Schneider responded the distinction is that these are fees charged. These are based on the cost to do something. These fees have to be reasonably related to the cost of the operation to deliver the services. I have difficulty understanding why one parcel of property is distinguished at $0 for permit fee while another may be $5, $100, $5,000. The distinction within the fee category would be more inspections for an apartment house than a single family residential or commercial over residential, but I think you would be defying the ability of proof to say that one is zero and the other is something other than zero.

Mr. Galster stated then you are more comfortable that we have some charge in there rather than no charge.

Mr. Schneider said that you have a charge that does not exceed your cost for doing it and some reasonable relationship of one type of user to another.

Mayor Webster said that being the case, that you have serious doubts about whether we can charge different fees, right now we donít charge for either one and Iíd like to see Council amend that to eliminate the charge. I canít imagine that itís going to be that big a loss of revenue for the City. We do everything we can to encourage people to do things to abide by the law and then to have to pay $50 to have a case heard is terrible. Iíd rather give up the prospect of that revenue and the $200 for multi-family. I donít think our board is overworked. I think there are times they cancel meetings because they donít have enough issues. When they do they are important ones and they do a real service for the City, but at the same time they are not an overworked board that we need to have this fee to try to keep people out.

Mrs. McNear said if we remove the fees from residential, whether it be single family or multi-family, then there would not be a problem charging a business. Is that correct?

Mr. Schneider replied I did not check that specifically but it would be clear that if you took both of those to zero it would eliminate that conflict. I think the recommendation of the Mayor would hold up there. What is our charge for a variance request for businesses?

Mr. Vanover said itís under all other residential and non-residential.

Mr. Schneider stated the proposal is to eliminate that whole category as the Mayor proposed it. If you are going to try to make a distinction between commercial and all other residential I would like the opportunity to review that.

Mr. Galster said if we eliminate the single residence household charge, take out variance request and eliminate all other residential and just say non-residential at $200. There is quite a bit more review that has to be done by staff for our corporate retail operations.

Mr. Vanover said we would also need to amend the endorsement to include the recommended wording as Mr. Osborn was so discussing and presenting so we would have to have an amendment anyhow.

Ms. Pollitt asked how many variance requests from single family households come before the board in a given year?

Mr. Squires replied I donít think itís a great number. Most of the variance requests are from single family homes. The common denominator on BZA is people who have built something out of code without a permit. With this $50 variance request fee, if they have built something out of code then at least it is going to cost them $50.

Ms. Pollitt asked what about people who come in for a variance but havenít started building yet?

Mr. Squires said thatís the other side of it. As a BZA member I donít particularly like it but sometimes the bad side of me says I want to get the people who have done these things to us also.

Ms. Pollitt said I would not want to penalize anyone who comes before a board in due process in asking for a variance. I donít have a problem levying a fee if someone comes into a board after they have completed a project or are in the middle of it. I think we have made it very easy for people to obtain building permits. The Building Department will even fax you an application and you can fax it back. Maybe we can break it apart and say if you want to come in for a variance request on a single family household there would be no charge for that, but if you come in after youíve started your construction there could be a penalty levied.

Mr. Wilson said Ms. Pollitt, BZA gets normally no more than three requests for variances per meeting. We meet ten or eleven times a year. Some of the people have already put their utility buildings in place. Some of them know but donít care. Maybe there should be some penalties for people who know they shouldnít do this or that and do it anyhow. We do grant most of the requests because they are a hardship.

Mr. Danbury asked donít we have a system in place for people who fail to get a permit?

Mr. Osborn said right now by law if someone fails to take a permit and they build, their building fees are automatically doubled. There is no discretion there so thatís a penalty they already have to pay. I see the levying of a fee for people who are coming in to get a variance to be a burden on top of a burden. Weíve already told these people who want to put something up and probably already have it ordered that they have to come in for a variance. So now they have to put off their plans, get on our schedule, come before the board, they are very nervous about this, they have to get letters from their neighbors saying their neighbors agree with it and then plead their case. Thatís a rigorous process already without the additional requirement that we charge them $50 for the pleasure of going through the process.

Mr. Danbury said at one time we did have a fee structure in place where we charged to get a building permit and we did away with it. We wanted to get people more inclined to do things the right way. With the truck we will park there, with the recycling service, itís an incentive for people to work on their houses. If we were to have a fee structure in place we could step back a little ways from it. This is not a drop in the bucket that we are getting. Some people may say Iíd rather spend $50 on more paint and they may do something. I think if we had no fee structure weíd have more people up here doing it the right way.

Mr. Galster said we change the variance request for residential to zero and eliminate the line on variance request for non-residential, and possibly come back with a modification to it later. I Ďd like to make sure that the Zoning Code can take effect because this needs to be part of that.

Mr. Schneider said Council does meet on March 15 which is the day before you need it. We have adequate time to amend it for the next meeting and have it here at the next meeting and still have it in effect the next day. As long as I know what you want, Iíll check out the legality issue. My understanding is you want to know if it is legally sound to have a variance request for commercial property with a fee while having no residential charge. What if itís not legal to make that distinction?

Mr. Galster said then on March 15 weíll have to eliminate that line and amend it later.

Mr. Schneider said if the majority knows what it wants to do tonight we can draft it that way and have it ready to go.

Mr. Galster said I was thinking of eliminating the single household residential and getting it down to zero and make the variance request for commercial non-residential $200. If we have to have a residential charge make it as little as it needs to be. Remember that a lot of the variance requests these businesses have are pretty intense.

Mr. Vanover said if weíre not charging anything and the cost is doubled then two times zero is still zero.

Mr. Osborn replied we donít charge for permits but there is a $50 penalty if you donít get a permit.

Mr. Vanover made a motion to table Ordinance 13-200 until the next meeting to allow Mr. Schneider to do the legal homework. Mr. Danbury seconded. The motion passed with seven affirmative votes.


First reading.


First reading.

Mr. Galster asked where are the exhibits?

Mr. Schneider said we have a plat here. Weíll make copies of that and the legal descriptions. Don will get those out to Council prior to the next meeting.


Mr. Osborn stated I had asked for an emergency clause on this because the Police Department is in the midst of an enforcement program that is funded through the State of Ohio. The reason I specifically asked that at the last Council meeting is that we are at the initiation of a program that has already been promoted. If there is any way to adopt this program tonight I would encourage you to do so.

Mr. Vanover made a motion to replace Section 2 with the emergency clause to Ordinance 16-2000. Mr. Galster seconded. The motion passed with seven affirmative votes.

Mr. Galster made a motion to adopt and Mr. Vanover seconded.

Ms. Pollitt asked do we already have a State law?

Mr. Osborn said as I explained in the packet, first, you cannot be stopped just for a seatbelt violation. Itís an incidental charge that occurs when a person is stopped for something else, auto accident, speeding, etc. The problem is that we cite all those traffic violations under local ordinances which cite the violator to Mayorís Court. If we cite that same person for a seat belt violation they would have to appear in Mayorís Court for the traffic case and downtown for the seatbelt. As a result the Department is very reluctant to put a person in that situation. Before they launch this program to highlight the necessity of using your seatbelts, they wanted to have an ordinance that we could cite under so that the person being cited could take care of both citations at the same time in the same court.

Ordinance 16-2000 passed with seven affirmative votes.


Mr. Vanover made a motion to adopt and Mr. Wilson seconded.

Mayor Webster said Iíd like to make a few comments, mostly regarding this resolution but some directed at the person who stood here before you tonight and condemned me for my endorsing of a candidate which I think is totally improper. I think for me to sit here on this dais and publicly endorse a candidate would be out of line. However, I think the lady who stood here before us was just as much out of line as I would be in doing that. I will not stoop to that level except to say that I whole-heartedly endorse this resolution. I cannot imagine any elected official in the State of Ohio who would not endorse this. I canít imagine any candidate running for public office who wouldnít endorse this in the State of Ohio unless you are running for township trustee. I think that would be the only exception. I think Mrs. Martin should have identified herself as a member of Mrs. Keels-Simonís campaign committee and the patriot, true blue organization and I donít think it is fair for someone to be able to sit there and take a potshot at a public official without them having the opportunity to respond.

Mr. Knox said she didnít attack me so I can say something. She said that Mr. Raussen was in favor of this proposal, or she intimated that at least. In fact, Mr. Raussen had a guest editorial in the Tri-County Press over a month ago saying he opposed this very clearly.

Mr. Squires said we heard quite a bit from that lady tonight. This will be part of the public record and Iíd like to see it published. I think that those attacks on public officials are unwarranted and as our Clerk so eloquently stated, they are without basis.

Mr. Wilson asked whatís that got to do with this resolution, the fact that the lady spoke against or for it? Weíre talking about this resolution, voting for or against it. I donít think we need to bring up that issue. Iím not saying I agree or disagree with this issue. The last two comments were on the periphery. I donít see the point in bringing it up at this junction.

Mr. Danbury said I think the key is what Mayor Webster said. This is going to handcuff our City. Mr. Knox hit it on the head when he discussed it at our last meeting. Not only is it going to handcuff our City, but itís going to handcuff the whole state. I hope everybody who is watching on TV or reading the paper knows about this and I hope every other community does something similar to this because itís going to kill this whole state.

Mr. Knox said the reason it bothers me is the very thing that you said. Itís on the periphery so people can say anything they want at any time as long as itís not exactly germane to the point we can dismiss it but itís still out there. It doesnít go away. I personally am getting very tired of this. People are doing this and doing it continually. I like to see accuracy in public statements; therefore, I made my comment. If you think thatís wrong, fine. I think it was the right time to do it.

Mr. Wilson said I felt it was on the periphery and should have been brought up at another time. I want to talk about this issue. I agree that we need to do this. I work in another city and I pay taxes there. If more residents did not pay taxes in the cities that they work in and we lose this revenue, I could not get to work and earn a living. My customers could not come to me and buy insurance and pay for their insurance. So the City in the end would lose because I would have to move somewhere else. Other businesses would have to move because their residents possibly could not get to their places of employment and to places where they buy items. I am in agreement with this resolution. Springdale is known for its streets. My customers tell me when they have to get off the interstate or they come up through Glendale, itís like going from the dessert to an oasis the way our streets are maintained and the way our services are maintained. People move to our city because of the services, streets and all the things that we do for free that other communities charge for. I would hope that legislators, senators, congressmen, whomever, vote to oppose this because it will hurt, not just Springdale but any resident in any city.

Mrs. McNear said in Springdale we enjoy a lot of services and a lot of benefits that most cities donít have, especially cities our size. The trade off we have is that we have to deal with the traffic, all the businesses, the day time population. However, if this law changes we are going to be stuck with no benefits and all the traffic too. I think everybody who hears about this has to make sure that your people in Congress and your state representatives hear about this. Not only that, tell your friends to have their feelings heard about this because this will hurt everyone.

Mr. Osborn stated the battle cry for the proponents of this are taxation without representation. I think if any thoughtful person stops to look at the policies in place that govern us, not just at the state level or county level or local level, but comprehensively, there are numerous examples of people who are taxed and do not have a vote in the jurisdiction that is taxing them. This is not something new. Itís predominant in fact. Any property owner who does not reside in the community where they own their property, has that property tax without the benefit of being able to vote for the officials that are levying that tax. Anyone who pays a sales tax in another jurisdiction other than where they live, has no right to determine the future of the elected officials who levied that tax. I think the general public is faced with that fact every day. Virtually anything they do outside their own jurisdiction that involves some sort of tax, be it the ownership of property, purchase of merchandise is going to result in a tax that they have no right to vote on nor vote on the representatives who levied the tax. I think the theme song of the proponents rings pretty hollow when you stop to look at the overall picture of taxation in this state.

Mr. Galster asked is this proper to be addressing in the community newsletter? Maybe we should do it ahead of time rather than waiting to see if it gets on the ballot. I know we are awfully careful about political things as far as the timing as to when they go out.

Mayor Webster stated I totally agree with you. Just to hold the line on keeping issues out of there, I would favor not putting it in there, but at the same time letís make another mailing to the people just on this particular issue. I think it is critical enough to the well-being of the City. At the same time I hate to see us set a precedent, put this in there and next time four or five members want to see an issue in there and say we did it before. Iíd like a separate mailing.

Mr. Galster said I understand that and you are talking about doing it now to inform them about signing the petition. But, also what happens if this does get the signatures and is on the ballot. We will have to explain our Charter amendments and those types of things. We can include this even though it might be a little bit borderline. Itís an issue that needs to be out there as close to election as possible.

Mayor Webster said I say we do it now and then we do it again 76 days before the election if we have to.

Mr. Knox reported that the current train of thought on this is that they are not getting that many petitions out which is beneficial to us. There is a worry that we may provide them the very publicity that they seek. What Iím suggesting is that we wait until after the primary which is next week. The word will get around pretty quickly as to how many petitions are out there and show up at polling places, and then make the decision after that time. The newsletter is going to print right now. I was going to suggest that we let it sit for a week and then if we find there is a lot of publicity on this, then we do make a mailing. After the election I will be passing around a list of the people who are going to be running, people who win the primary. Iím also going to be passing around a signature sheet and I ask that the Mayor, President of Council and each member of Council sign. I will sign it and weíll send it to these specific people to show them how the City of Springdale feels and get their attention.

Mr. Vanover said Mr. Knox, in reality, we probably arenít going to have anything ready to go before the Tuesday election anyway, but that notwithstanding, I think the best voter is an educated voter and I think we would shoot ourselves in the foot if we would back away under the guise of the less said the better. I think we need to let people know. Letís face it. This is a guise by the individuals who are proposing it and they are trying to use it as a trump card to try to throw their weight around and one would have to question the authenticity of their concern about these poor unrepresented tax payers. I understand what youíre saying but we need to get this information out to people, not sit back and hope it will go away. If we wait and there is a ground swell at the last minute, I think we will be sorry.

Mr. Squires asked Mr. Knox, are they going to have a lot of people at the polling places with petitions to sign?

Mr. Knox replied thatís what they hope and as we expect it to be. Iím saying if we donít see anybody here and we check with other people at other polling places and nobody shows up and the petitions arenít there, the likelihood of this not passing starts to diminish quite a bit. They need 335,000 signatures. As weíre finding out this is the only part of the state that there is any activity at all. Thatís why I and other people are worrying that by publicizing it, other people in other parts of the state may say give me one and Iíll sign it. Iíll certainly do what the Council recommends. Itís one of those you have to play by ear jobs.

Mr. Squires said the question becomes do we have enough time to get one of those documents into the hands of the voters? We donít, do we? I agree with Mr. Galster that Iím all for attacking this. Maybe because of the constraint of time we are forced to wait this one out. And you may be right, we may be feeding them publicity that we really donít want to do.

Mayor Webster said there is too much at stake to roll the dice and hope that it doesnít get on the ballot. I propose that we send a copy of this resolution out with a cover letter from Mr. Osborn, our City Administrator, take politics out of it and urge people in his letter not to sign a petition to get this issue on the ballot. We canít get this out before next Tuesday. It would probably be late next week but I think we should do it post haste with a letter from Mr. Osborn.

Mrs. McNear said I would hate to see this get on the ballot. The school levy passed with such a very small margin and people were very aggravated. I wouldnít want this to come off the same way.

Resolution R7-2000 passed with seven affirmative votes.


Mrs. McNear asked Mr. Parham about the Rec Center.

Mr. Osborn suggested it be a monthly report. We do intend to have a more intensive meeting with the Capital Improvements Committee and go into great detail. Then they can decide if they want a special presentation to Council which is better than asking us to give you a thumbnail. I think you need a more comprehensive presentation. We were going to propose a tour of the facility for the elected officials on Saturday, March 11 at 9 a.m. for about two hours. We could supplement that with a monthly report for you on issues that may be related to the progress.


Mr. Osborn requested an executive session to discuss real estate and litigation.


Parks and Recreation - March 7, 2000

District 3 Meeting - March 8

Board of Health - March 9

Planning Commission - March 14

Board of Zoning Appeals - March 21



Vacation of McClellans Lane - open

Vacation ROW on Cloverdale Avenue - March 21

Awarding bid for Comm. Ctr. Furniture - March 15


Resolution honoring citizens & street names - March 15

Pay Compensation for Council 12/1/03 - open

Mr. Vanover made a motion for Council to go into executive session as a committee of the whole to discuss land acquisition. Mr. Wilson seconded. The motion passed with seven affirmative votes.

Mr. Osborn said the executive session is for litigation and land acquisition.

Mr. Danbury made a motion for Council to go into executive session as a committee of the whole to discuss litigation and possible land acquisition. Mr. Vanover seconded. The motion passed with seven affirmative votes.

Council went into executive session at 10:18 p.m.

Council reconvened at 11:00 p.m. Mrs. McNear polled Council and referred the Council pay question back to Finance Committee.

Council adjourned at 11:02 p.m.



Respectfully submitted,




Edward F. Knox

Clerk of Council/Finance Director

Minutes Approved:

Kathy McNear, President of Council



__________________________, 2000