PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING
MAY 13, 2008
I. CALL MEETING TO ORDER
The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. by Tony Butrum.
II. ROLL CALL
Members Present: Richard Bauer, Tony Butrum, David Okum, Carolyn Ghantous, Lawrence Hawkins III, Steve Galster, and Tom Vanover
Others Present: Don Shvegzda, City Engineer, Anne McBride, City Planner and
Bill McErlane, Building Official
III. MINUTES OF THE REGULAR MEETING OF 8 APRIL 2008
Tom Vanover moved to adopt the Minutes from the Regular Planning Meeting on April 8, 2008, and Mr. Okum seconded the motion; Mr. Lawrence abstained and with a six Member affirmative vote the minutes were adopted.
IV. MINUTES OF THE SPECIAL MEETING OF 29 APRIL 2008
Tom Vanover moved to adopt the Minutes from the Special Planning Meeting on April 29, 2008, and Mr. Okum seconded the motion and with a seven Member affirmative vote the minutes were adopted.
a. Letter to Marjorie Harlow Major Modification to the Crossings in The Park PUD for Princeton Commons Office Development,
12100 Princeton Pike
VI. OLD BUSINESS
(Chairman Butrum stated no old business to report.)
VII. NEW BUSINESS
A. Modification of Preliminary Plan for Tri-County Commons PUD Burbanks (Portion of Former Globe Furniture Store) 11725 Commons Drive
Larry Bergman: We are here to introduce you to a group who would like to build a venue which will suit very well for the City of Springdale. One of the things that is eminent is the importance of bringing entertainment into the City and what makes Springdale different than all the other areas; we are fortunate that Everest Real Estate brought us a client of theirs and they are planning on relocating Burbanks from Sharonville and expanding it also into a concert venue called the Roadhouse, it would be very similar to the facility in Pittsburg. They want to listen to you about the things that are needed.
Gary Burbank added the concept is a 35 to 40 year old plus clientele. Most people my age dont like going out clubbing, because at 10:00 p.m. the bands are just getting started and Im getting sleepy at that point and time. This is more of a laid back situation where we would bring in people like Willie Nelson. It is a 1200 seat venue, something to that effect; it would be dinner and a show this concept has worked very well throughout a few other places that we have investigated.
Peter Zimmer: I am one of the partners in Burbanks currently. What we are doing is taking a restaurant with a 20 plus year very successful history and we are moving this five minutes down the street. The farthest seat will be 65 to 70 away from the stage these will all be configured in rectangular tables of four that are pushed together in groups of anywhere from 12 to 20 off the sides of the stage and the front of the stage.
The price of the ticket will include parking dinner and the show. We think that this gives us a big advantage in many ways; because the concert venue that are in town, many of them are located downtown which is not a desirable place for people to go to anymore. If you go to a concert downtown you are going to pay ten to fifteen dollars to park and you are going to walk 2 to 6 blocks; and you will have to go somewhere for dinner beforehand. We want to make this a one-stop shop.
This center with Dave and Busters will work nicely for us. Dave and Busters has been a Springdale entertainment destination for many years, I think the two of us will work hand and hand together and do a lot of cross-promotion. I subscribe to a service called Pollstar, which is a concert booking facility and basically what happens is I get on their website and I do a search of any of the acts that will sell between 900 to 1500 tickets. Country Music is by far the most popular. The Pepsi Roadhouse that I am really modeling this after, if you go back and look when they opened in 1999 and they are going on their ninth year and they have been very successful and you look at some of the acts that they brought in, Toby Keith, Kenny Chestney, Keith Urban, Brad Paisley guys that are selling U.S. Bank arena. We really want to gear this toward the 35 to 64 baby-boomer crowd, the people who have the most disposable income but probably have the least entertainment options out there. We will work on a little bit of a circuit. I think what you will find that this will actually become a regional draw for us, as well, and I think with Dayton, Louisville, Lexington, and Indianapolis we have some major big cities that we can pull from just a few hours away.
Gary Burbank: Springdale is a much better location. When Pete mentioned some of the guys like Kenny Rogers, they love this kind of thing because they are playing county fairs and it is hot and they dont want to play 300 days a year and they love the idea of a circuit.
Larry Bergman: I think you now have a picture of what the business is about. What we want to do is work with you tonight to a point where they can plan details. They have set up a partnership with some very strong financial backers. This is going to be a unique approach; we are not telling you what we are doing, we are asking you how to do it.
Chairman Butrum: Thank you for the presentation, I know we have some staff comments.
Mr. McErlane would you like to lead off?
Mr. McErlane: The property is zoned Planned Unit Development (PUD) and is part of the Springdale Tri-County Commons PUD. The applicant is proposing to change the use of 35,000 s.f. the former Globe Furniture Space (57,600 s.f.) to a restaurant/assembly use and concert venue. Plans do not indicate any modifications to the exterior building elevations.
The original PUD restrictive covenants and amendments were submitted. They restrict the use of the east end of the building. This space was carved out of the former Roberds Grand Space. The recorded covenants, which restrict the use of this space, the Ashley Furniture Store and a residual unleashed space, allow only the following uses: 23,500 s.f. - consumer electronics sales
22,500 s.f. - appliance sales
193,273 s.f. - furniture and bedding sales
72,500 s.f. - warehouse
A draft of revised covenants to accommodate the proposed use must be submitted.
Parking requirements are as follows:
Concert venue 20,750 s.f. / 50 = 415
Employee areas 5,750 s.f. / 100 = 58
Restaurant 8,500 s.f. / 50 = 170
Total 643 spaces
The applicant refers to a statement in paragraph 11 of the original recorded covenants which states Cross parking easements may be permitted for lots 1, 2 and 3A within the project to meet applicable code requirements. This section allocated the total parking for all 3 lots to be satisfied by the aggregate parking spaces combined on the 3 lots. More importantly, lots 1, 2 and 3A as referred to in the covenants pertain to Walmart, Sams and the Tri-County Commons Shopping Center and have nothing to do with the subject property. Parking allocated to this use needs to be defined. Shared parking with Ashley Furniture
may be considered, provided occupancy times do not present a conflict and the lease agreements permit shared parking.
There are 103 spaces on the east side of the building. Although not specifically noted on the plan, there appears to be 142 spaces behind the building. These spaces will likely be used only by employees and valet parking because they are not visible or convenient to the entrance. The balance of the parking will need to be accommodated in front of the Ashley Furniture Store. The concert venue would probably encroach into about half of Ashley Furnitures parking area. The concern is to make sure that Ashley Furniture doesnt have some lease agreements that say that they have exclusive use of that parking area.
Sign drawings submitted show the following:
Ground sign 4 X 16.67 = 66.7 s.f.
Pylon sign panel 4 X 22 = 88 s.f.
Marquis Sign 6.5 X 12.5 = 81.3 s.f.
Cincy Roadhouse 5.9 X 20.8 = 123.4 s.f.
Gary Burbank / South 61 5 X 29 = 145 s.f.
Total proposed sign area 504.4 s.f.
Allowable sign area is based on the width of the tenant space (294).
Area = 1.5 (294) + 40 = 481 s.f.
Proposed signs exceed allowable by 23.4 s.f. (5%).
Documentation will be required from Kimco indicating that they are permitting this use to have a panel on the pylon sign which they control.
The narrative mentions the possibility of a high-resolution video billboard. The Zoning Code does permit an electronic highway sign for a single PUD development, but it is to serve the entire PUD development (Tri-County Commons Shopping Center, Beltway Center, Sofa Express). There are some specific requirements for them with regard to architectural design for them.
Peter Zimmer: On the parking, I think I originally listed the restaurant at 8500 s.f. and that would be the total restaurant, kitchen and Karen informed me that the way you figure it is actually on the square footage of the seating and not of the whole restaurant; so it would really be about 4500. It may take the number of parking spaces down by 60.
Larry Bergman: It is not in the best interest of the center to be sitting there with vacant spaces.
Gary Burbank: And our shows dont take place during high traffic volume times, it would be after that around 7:30 p.m. and we can change that if it is a problem.
Peter Zimmer: It is very important to understand that this is set to do somewhere between 35 to 50 shows a year.
Anne McBride staff comment: My first comment has to do with the two members of Council, Mr. Galster and Mr. Vanover will need to make the determination as to whether or not this is a major or a minor change from the approved final development plan that was approved originally for the Tri-County Commons PUD and that will impact whether or not this Commission makes a decision or has to make a recommendation on to Council.
We just want to make sure that there is going to be plenty of parking, not only for this use but for subsequent uses that may come in to the center. Larry, do you remember there is a parking table chart that we have used before; you may have a copy of it? What we would like to do is work with them and make sure that again because we made every other user do this. I think staff agrees that their peak hour is not going to be the same peak hour as the retailers. We want to make sure there is adequate parking there.
We havent seen how they are going to handle their waste and obviously a concert venue is going to have a fair amount of waste, so we need to find out how that is going to be handled, screened and where it is going to be located and serviced; the same thing with the loading area for the restaurant, the food and so forth, how that will be serviced and accessed with regards to the building. Originally I think they were looking at an outdoor patio, right now they are not looking at any changes to the exterior of the building, save the additional signage. If they are going to be making any changes to any mechanical equipment, we would like to see that screened from view, whether it would be ground mounted or rough mounted to start that screening process on the PUD.
The only other question I would have of the applicant, the Pepsi Roadhouse, I went on their website and I noticed that they do rent that venue out for weddings or graduation parties, is that the intent to do that?
Peter Zimmer: Yes.
Anne McBride: So, it may be booked every Saturday Night, you would hope for weddings or whatever.
Peter Zimmer: So then we are talking 200 people.
Anne McBride: I understand.
Don Schvegzda staff comments: The only question or comment is in regard to the traffic generation for this particular use. This particular PUD has a target basically for peak hour traffic; the last time it was formally revised was back in 2000 for the Great Indoors, since that time it has really been similar uses and it has not been updated. With this particular use, obviously the peak hour traffic numbers will be different based on what they have indicated as far as the concert time periods. Some of the concert time periods it appears that some of those will be offset from the peak hours that are generally observed during the week day which are primarily 4-6 p.m. and Saturday 1-2 p.m., but we do need numbers to essentially update the chart; so that everyone knows where they are at in regards to potential future developments within the PUD.
Mr. Galster: The Pittsburg facility, would it be similar in size to what you are proposing here, is it larger or smaller?
Peter Zimmer: Pittsburg has 1016 seats, so we will be just a little bit bigger; and the Pittsburg facility does not have a restaurant with it, it is strictly just a concert facility, so their square footage is about 22,000 square feet total.
Gary Burbank: And they do dinner and a show.
Mr. Galster: It is only dinner when there is a show there?
Gary Burbank: Yes.
Mr. Galster: There is a lot of discussion about parking spaces, so do you have a feel for what you need?
Peter Zimmer: It is certainly not my area of expertise. Sharonville figured three people to a car, so they did a very quick calculation and came up with about 500. From our perspective parking and the traffic in and out of the center, it is paramount that it is handled well otherwise the clientele will not want to come. I look at the vast amount of parking that is out there, and I say, if someone had to park in front of Golf Galaxy it might be a 5, 6, 7 or 8 minute walk down which compared to lot of venues it is certainly not out of the realm, but we will certainly look at bringing a shuttle bus in if we had to accommodate the guests. I figured from my experiences at other venues that Im going to have to hire off duty police officers to work detail to help with the flow of traffic in and out.
Mr. Galster: What about valet parking?
Peter Zimmer: It is something that I think we will look at; I dont think we will start that way.
Gary Burbank: It depends on the act, as to how many people there will be.
Mr. Galster: I am excited about the project. I have been to your facility in Sharonville and have always found the food to be of great quality and enjoy going there. The biggest concern is parking, but I am thinking if I go down to U.S. Bank or I go to any large venue how far I do have to walk.
Mr. Vanover: I too would echo the excitement. I am excited about the potential over there and I think it would blend and it is part of why I did not feel that it was a major change because we have Dave and Busters over there and I think it would blend in real well. I did like Mr. McErlanes thought on that back parking lot if you would decide to do valet parking.
Mr. Hawkins: Inside, is there going to be any change in elevation, or will it be all flat throughout the entire auditorium?
Peter Zimmer: The Pepsi Roadhouse is all flat, all one level. We have kicked around the thought of possibly some of the back tables may be three feet off the ground, building just a platform. We will have a little better understanding of that once an architect gets involved. It almost a half million dollar investment in just the equipment that goes with this there will be multiple big screen televisions throughout the whole thing, so really I dont think we will have to do that and we should be able to do it all on one elevation. In booking the concerts we occasionally can get a bigger name who is I can do a filtered search on Pollstar and I picked a Monday in July and I want to know everyone who will sell between 1,000 an 1,500 tickets who either two days before this date, this Monday or two days after will be within 500 miles of Cincinnati, and the first name that popped up is Art Garfunkle and Saturday night Art Garfunkle was in
North Carolina and on the following Wednesday he was up in Canada. Here is a situation where he literally is coming right up Interstate 75, so we are talking four minutes off the highway and because of the equipment here they do not have to unload the whole truck, it is basically push a few instruments off and we have the speakers the sound, the lights.
Mr. Hawkins: Do you plan on keeping normal business hours that the restaurant currently has right now?
Peter Zimmer: Yes.
Mr. Hawkins: What do you anticipate the average ticket price to be?
Peter Zimmer: They will run between $39.00 up to $135.00 per ticket depending on the act and I think we will probably fall in the medium ticket is about $68.00 for parking, dinner and show.
Mr. Galster: Mr. Burbank, are you involved in this venture or is it kind of a name only thing?
Gary Burbank: I was the one that started talking about it first; I had heard something about it other places and I pulled Pete aside and said, we need a different concept and here is a good idea and we just kind of developed it.
Mr. Galster: So you will continue to be involved?
Gary Burbank: I will be involved in this. The menus are my mothers, my grandmothers and my aunts recipes they are all from Tennessee. So to answer your question, it is very close to me and I will be an investor.
Mr. Galster: Mr. Bergman, I cant remember what the layout of your building is, as far as the other space, if this back parking lot is an option for the concerts is there any way to have a passageway through that warehouse area?
Mr. Bergman: We could explore it, right now it is just vacant space. We have temporary warehouse tenants. I think it would be difficult but we can explore that.
Peter Zimmer: If you look at the front of the building there is actually warehouse space to the left and there are four dock doors, and my hope is that we can take one of the dock doors, the one furthest to the right and that goes back into the green room and the dressing room and that way the bands and the truck can pull right up to the dock. If I have to use that for my delivery access for my kitchen, I can certainly do that.
Mr. Okum: I am also a fan of yours, Mr. Burbank and your restaurant over in Sharonville. I will make a comment in regards to the restaurant; I would like to see the restaurant more accessible to me and my family. I think that walking all the way up to the main entrance will be inconvenient, so when you get into the architectural phase of it think about us fifty year olds that dont want to walk very far. I believe you can work out with Staff the issues on the parking numbers that are necessary. I am very excited about this; my son has worked at Dave & Busters pretty much ever since they opened and I mentioned this to him after the Staff meeting and he thought it would blend very well with Dave & Busters business.
My final comment is in regard to the signage; Staff has recommended that no digital signage shall be considered at this time.
Peter Zimmer: Our major concern and we did address at one point a video billboard and our major concern was there is a pylon there that is owned by Kimco and we have worked out a deal with them but they cant guarantee it is always going to be there and I dont want to be in a situation a year from now where I have no signage.
Mr. Okum: And that sign will be there for a pretty long time; the City has explored avenues for a digital information board for the entire business district to help businesses.
Peter Zimmer: The big canopy entrance is really designed just to be the entrance for the Roadhouse and we do plan on having a separate entrance for the restaurant and it is closer than Ashley Furniture.
Mr. Vanover: Mr. Shevgzda, on the traffic are you recommending that we do an update on our traffic study or just fresh our counts?
Mr. Shevgzda: All I am asking for at this point, there isnt anything that applies in the ITE trip generation manual for this particular type of use. A suggestion, since they have identified a particular use that is similar in the Pittsburg operation, if traffic counts could be obtained for that particular location, pro-rate them accordingly.
Mr. Okum: Ms. McBride, is your recommendation consideration that the signage package presented be approved excluding the digital sign and I brought up the issue on the pylon sign being separated out or do we just leave it as, No signage review or approval at this time except size and proportions identified in the application. Final signage on the pylon sign shall be reviewed and considered by Springdale Planning Commission.
Ms. McBride: Yes. We are fine with the signage on the building, the pylon sign obviously they need to get Kimcos approval that we can have a copy of that and there were some design issues as this Commission knows with regards to how that
sign, particularly the panels are separated. We need to make sure that those items are addressed with regard to the pylon. But, other than that the signage was fine.
Mr. Okum: They are working on the final name and I dont want to be specific to that signage. I do feel that the pylon sign needs to be reviewed by us.
Ms. McBride: You could approve it subject to Staffs review with that. If that is what the Commission wants to do.
Mr. McErlane: Planning Commission already gave Kimco some guidance on how they wanted that sign to be divided up and Kimco needs to work on that part of it; regardless of that process as long as Planning Commission is o.k. with the panel that this applicant is asking for we can work through the details of how the sign is constructed. And you can structure your motion that you are approving just their sign area on the sign and details of the construction would be consistent with what you approved previously.
Mr. Galster: In reference to the sign, I am not opposed to the signage that they have shown and I think it would be better to just hold off approval on the signage until we get the complete package and they have had an opportunity to get with Kimco and see what fits.
Mr. Okum: I agree and disagree with you, Mr. Galster, I think the applicant needs to have a clear good feeling that the square footages that they have submitted are o.k. with this Commission. If we leave it for the sign package to come in and our consideration on it, I dont think we want that.
Mr. Galster: I agree with that but without knowing the details what Kimco is going to do with that sign; are they going to do it now or are they going to do it ten years from now.
Mr. Okum: If we approve the pylon sign as submitted, then the direction that we gave Kimco on that sign would be voided by our approval.
Mr. Glaster: I think that every time that we have had an applicant we have been over signed because of the size of the building. In order to look proper on this building we have allowed over signage for pretty much every applicant in that building.
Mr. Okum: Basically if they come back with the square footage, I mean I am not worried about content, Im not worried about what the sign looks like, what the shape of the sign is square footage is all I am concerned with.
When are you looking to open?
Peter Zimmer: It will be early of 2009, I believe.
Chairman Butrum: I am perfectly comfortable with throwing it to Staff and getting the square feet and scale as part of the motion. That is my view; Mr. Vanover?
Mr. Vanover: That would be mine too.
Mr. Hawkins: I am o.k. either way, but if I had my preference I would like to see the sign package.
Ms. Ghantous: I agree, I would like to see the sign package.
Mr. Bauer: Yes. I would like to see the sign package.
Chairman Butrum: O.K. Lets build it in.
Mr. Okum: I would like to make a motion that we approve the Cincinnati Roadhouse/South 61 project as requested including the site plan as submitted and a rough floor plan showing primary use of the 35,000 square feet. The motion includes Staff, City Planners recommendation; it also shall include Staff and Law Directors review and approval of the final revisions to the covenants. Any new or replacement mechanical uses shall be screened from the public right of way or adjoining properties in Staff approved enclosures. Parking and site plan conditions to include cross use agreements necessary to meet Staffs determination of the quantity necessary. All building elevations to stay as predominately existing with no significant changes. The signage on the building shall be subject to final approval by this Board.
Mr. Lawrence polled the Planning Commission and with a unanimous vote the motion was accepted.
Mr. Okum: Back a couple months ago we had the Tri-County district revitalization plan presented and I was very impressed and felt that we really need to set the tone that we are more than just impressed that we want to move this further than just where it was at. I think it is important that it should stem from Planning Commission and ultimately with a recommendation to Council and if we are going to have draft legislation, that it is generated from this Commission. We want the businesses of the community to understand that we are on board as well. So, if we at least get a committee started and I am offering to Chair that committee, I would like to involve the administration, our City Planner and Staff and try to bring about which way this will go. We have to limit it to three because of the sunshine law, we cant have a majority.
Chairman Butrum: Thank you, Mr. Okum, I agree.
Mr. Galster: I agree also, Mr. Okum. I dont know what the direction is whether it be a modification or a comprehensive land use plan. Would it be a new corridor review district, or whatever. I am not opposed to being committed and doing whatever we need to do but I just dont know that our product is finished enough to implement that stage.
Mr. Okum: It doesnt have to be etched in stone type legislation, but it needs to be conceptual, so that people know the direction.
Mr. Galster: I think that we are awfully close to that point, I just dont know that we are there quite yet.
Mr. Okum: Right now we have not even approved conceptionally, we have not even made a motion to accept that presentation as concept. So, right now if somebody came into us with a development for any one of those four corners or any part of that district we dont have anything to say to them, well you know you really ought to look at this plan. I dont want to be doing it after I want to do it ahead of that problem.
Mr. Galster: What is that timeframe on the final presentation to the City, Jeff?
Jeff Tulloch: I think it is going to be June or July before we have the final document done. I am still getting feedback from some of the major stakeholders, Coventry and others. And the feedback is generally hey, it looks great. The party I got significant input from was Bob Gilhart who went through it in detail. I would want Annes input into how we address it, what we can address. I dont know how we could legislate that right now and I dont know that I would want to because that could turn into something substantially different; I think having the dialogue to decide how we approach it from a Planning standpoint. Maybe we can address by quadrant or area.
I agree that we are not quite there yet and I agree with you Dave in terms of a Committee to address it and have a dialogue.
Mr. Okum: I am not worried about the content as much as the concept.
Ms. McBride: I think it is important to have some conclusion to the KKG report and to have that done. My thoughts and what I have discussed on a preliminary basis is to take the thoughts and the ideas that have come out of that report and try to translate them into something that the City can use to guide development. I think that is going to be in the form of an overlay district. That is the form that most communities take when they have a situation like this. Once they conclude that report and the City is comfortable with the report and as it winds its way through the process I dont think that there is any reason why a committee could not start to be formed and things could start to be drafted, so that shortly after the formal adoption of that report, would be the implementation stage of that plan. I would think that this conversation in June is the appropriate one to start the committee, again depending on where they are with the report.
Jeff Tulloch: I think there are two components to the plan, obviously you have your public sector improvements 747 corridor, 747/I-275 interchange; you have got issues on Kemper, power lines. The corners where we would like to see a village feel. There are more immediate things that Planning Commission and the City can deal with, in fact the Mayor has basically said he wants to see something happen in short order. The best way of moving a plan along is to show some demonstration.
Mr. Okum: If we are only talking two months - if there are steps that we can take on this Commission that will assist that and it is going to take some time to bring that all together; and I want to also send a signal that we are behind you.
Mr. Vanover: We are thinking pro-active and we are ready to take that stance and I think it is important, because we have some developers out there that will fall in line. I think the best thing right now is to get the final product.
Jeff Tulloch: Just having this dialogue here tonight is important.
Mr. Okum: I just have one question, is Tri-County going to put their atmospheric graphic panels on their mall.
Chairman Butrum: They have had the structures up.
Jeff Tulloch: I may find out next week out at ICS. They are in process; I think that one of the issues is that when the project redevelopment was bid, somebody didnt put in the numbers for the graphic panels so they are also arguing about who pays for it.
Anne McBride: At our next month meeting the Commission is going to be considering the improved landscape plan for the CMHA development and so I would ask you to prepare for next months meeting if you would go down to that development and drive through it and take a look at the landscaping. You are going to be asked to say whether this landscaping is adequate or do we hold them to the plan that we approved.
Mr. Okum: Jeff, the sign for Tri-County on Kemper Road is not level.
Chairman Butrum: Dave is right.
Mr. Okum: Also the small sign by the Michaels Tire Center has an indirect halogen light that his you in the eyes as you are driving.
Chairman Butrum: Speaking of signs, I guess the clock is ticking on that imaging place that we permitted for a year, on the awning.
IX. CHAIRMANS REPORT
There was no Chairmans report for this meeting.
Chairman Butrum added a thank you to Dave for sitting in for him at the Planning Staff Meeting.
So, with that, Ill accept a motion for adjournment.
Mr. Vanover moved to adjourn and the Planning Commission adjourned at 8:36 p.m.
Chairman Tony Butrum
Lawrence Hawkins III, Secretary