PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING
October 12, 2010
I. CALL MEETING TO ORDER
The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. by Chairman Tony Butrum.
II. ROLL CALL
Members Present: Carolyn Ghantous, David Okum, Richard Bauer, Don Darby,
Steve Galster, Chairman Tony Butrum
Members Absent: Tom Vanover
Others Present: Anne McBride, City Planner; William McErlane, Building Official; Don Shvegzda, City Engineer
Chairman Butrum: For the applicants; we do have six of our seven Members here and it does require five affirmative votes.
III. MINUTES OF THE REGULAR MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 14, 2010
Mr. Okum moved to adopt the September 14, 2010 Planning Commission Meeting minutes, Mr. Darby seconded the motion and the minutes were adopted with six aye votes, (Mr. Vanover being absent).
IV. REPORT ON COUNCIL
Mr. Galster: No report.
Chairman Butrum: We have a letter nominating Mr. Dave Okum as municipal representative for Hamilton County Regional Planning Commission.
VI. OLD BUSINESS
A. Chairman Butrum: Under Old Business, we have Tri-County Towne Center landscaping, at 11711 Princeton Pike. We did get a letter from the applicant saying that they would like to be removed from tonights meeting and asking us to table them until next month.
Mr. Okum: I move to table, per their request.
Ms. Ghantous seconded the motion, and with six affirmative votes the request to
table was accepted.
VII. NEW BUSINESS
A. Chairman Butrum: Home Emporium revision to PUD Transition District Development Plan and Signs, 600 Kemper Commons Circle.
Mr. Jerry Mitchell: We are moving our Home Emporium; we are in Pleasant Ridge right now on Ridge Avenue and we have decided to come and join the Springdale Family.
Mr. McErlane: As you are probably aware, the zoning on the property is Planned Unit Development (PUD) and is part of the Tri-County Commons PUD. What the applicant is proposing is to occupy the former Walmart facility. Before you tonight is basically an application for the sign package and I did not provide comments on this, I left that to Anne McBride so that we didnt duplicate anything.
(At this time Ms. McBride read her Staff comments. No comments were presented by the City Engineer.)
Mr. Okum: In regards to material that you would place outside in the enclosed area, what type of product would you be utilizing that for?
Mr. Mitchell: Pavestone pavers, pottery and things like that.
Mr. Okum: So, there would be palletized items?
Mr. Mitchell: Yes.
Mr. Okum: There would be no live material? No live landscaping materials, trees, shrubs?
Mr. Mitchell: At this time we dont sell that type of material but if you have ever shopped at our place, if we can find a deal on it there is a chance that we would sell it.
At this time, we do not sell that type of material.
Mr. Okum: So, the outside wont be for crates or an outdoor warehouse?
Mr. Mitchell: No.
Mr. Okum: Where will you warehouse most of your material?
Mr. Mitchell: We have approximately 30,000 feet inside the building.
Mr. Okum: The outside, will that be a display area then or warehousing area?
Mr. Mitchell: I believe it will probably end up being more of a display area so people could shop for that product.
Mr. Okum: I believe there were some conditions on the site for what Walmart could utilize that outdoor display area for that had been approved through this Commission.
I believe there was stacking of pallets up against the fence line; those types of things were addressed. I am thrilled to death that you are going to be occupying the space but you dont want it to look like it is a used car lot sitting in a fenced area.
Mr. McErlane: The only thing I recall which is pretty typical is that you cant store products any higher than the fence enclosure, but I am not aware of any other restrictions on it, but we can verify that.
Mr. Okum: As far as the landscaping, would that be up to you or the landlord?
Mr. Mitchell: For the first period of this time we are subleasing from Walmart because their lease is not up and actually that lease calls for that to be Walmarts responsibility but we would be glad to try and help any way we can; even if it comes down to resistance in Walmart we can probably step in and help with that. We want to be a good neighbor to all of the merchants there and a good neighbor to Springdale.
Mr. Bauer: Ms. McBride, what is the extent of the landscaping that is in need of fixing?
Ms. McBride: I will pass down a drawing of the original landscape plan. The red dots indicate what is actually there, so you can see that there is quite a bit of material that is missing. In particular as you drive along the western ring road, there is one tree there.
Mr. McErlane: To the landlords credit and I am not sure if this was Kimco or Walmart, somebody has done some re-landscaping along the main drive that comes in.
Mr. Galster: Ms. McBride, it looks to me that there are five or six trees along the ring road that are not there at all; or are they just in disrepair?
Ms. McBride: They are not there at all.
Mr. Galster: Is this the applicants or Walmarts responsibility or the landlords? Do we make it a condition upon the approval for his sublease that some of his landscaping be taken care of?
Ms. McBride: You could make it a condition of the approval that he will work with Staff to make a reasonable effort to implement some of the landscaping; I hate to hold him to replace every tree and every shrub that is out there. If he is willing to work with us maybe we can locate some key areas where some landscaping would improve the site as well as the appearance for his building.
Mr. Okum: I would like to move to approve the request for 600 Kemper Commons Circle PUD modification for the Home Emporium to be approved with Staffs comments in regards to the project and it shall also address the applicant working with Staff in regards to missing landscaping as identified by Staff and additionally it shall include in the motion merchandising in the outdoor area will adhere to the previously approved use of the outdoor enclosed area.
Seconded by Mr. Galster.
Mr. Galster: If we dont know what or if there was anything approved for that, is there any minimum stipulations that you want to add to that?
Mr. Okum: It would fall back to the covenants and the development plan.
Mr. McErlane: All the covenants say, relative to outdoor storage is that it either needs to be screened from view or as approved on the approved development plan.
It doesnt give that kind of detail for how to store it.
Mr. Okum: Which should be fine then. I think that brings it to what we had approved or is in the covenants or on the approved development plan, as requirements on this development as well; no additional burden, just staying consistent with what we had already approved.
Ms. McBride: Can I also get clarification that it is the Commissions position that we can work with the applicant, not necessarily to implement every shrub and every tree, but to work with them to provide an improvement on the landscaping situation.
Mr. Okum: I just want to make sure, Ms. McBride, that doesnt waive or remove the burden on this development from meeting the landscaping requirements that are current overall as PUD?
Mr. Galster: You are not eliminating the requirement but you are not putting the full burden on tenant.
Ms. McBride: Yes.
Chairman Butrum: It is not lowering the standards.
Mr. Bauer polled the Planning Commission Members and with six affirmative votes (Mr. Vanover being absent) the request for revision to PUD Transition District Development Plan and Signs at 600 Kemper Commons Circle was approved.
B. Chairman Butrum: Moving on to item B under New Business, SmoQ, L.L.C. Revision to PUD/Transition District Development Plan / Wall signs and Outdoor Smoker at 275 Pictoria Drive.
Mr. Pete Zimmer: I think everything that we have submitted is pretty self-explanatory and we are excited to be here and Papadeaux is excited to have us here and it will be a very good fit to the neighborhood.
(At this time Mr. McErlane read his Staff comments.)
Ms. McBride: Is the smoker actually going to work?
Mr. Zimmer: Yes.
Ms. McBride: Are you going to have any signage on it?
Mr. Zimmer: No.
Mr. Okum: Is this a national company?
Mr. Zimmer: No.
Mr. Okum: Where will the smoker go when it is not in the parking lot?
Mr. Zimmer: It belongs to my kitchen manager who lives in Middletown and it goes back to him when the time is up.
Mr. Okum: The dining area is a little more upscale than most barbeque joints you go to.
Mr. Zimmer: It is upscale; the concept of SmoQ is to be more of a celebration of the smoker itself than a traditional barbeque place. We want to have an emphasis on southern cuisine.
Mr. Bauer: The second photo in the packet, what is that photo of?
Mr. Zimmer: That is the inside view of the wall where the smoker would be located.
Mr. Bauer: Is there a reason why it is located there?
Mr. Zimmer: It will not fit inside because it is a pretty big smoker.
Mr. Galster: Since you want to put the portable smoker outside to attract attention by the aroma, I am starting to wonder about the aroma outside. Because this is more of a commercial area and not around residences I dont have quite the same concern. What kind of volume or intensity are we talking about from the smoker?
Mr. Zimmer: It is certainly not like John Morrell, the vent on the smoker is a 4 vent; obviously the intent is to keep most of the smoke inside the unit to help flavor the food. There is actually an extraction button to release that poof into the air and
I would liken it to no more than the vent on top of my hood system over the grill.
Mr. Galster: And given the fact that this location is not residential or budding residential I am not as concerned about it. Now, the temporary smoker that is out there for two weeks before you open and two weeks after you open, are we talking about having a hot smoker out in the middle of a parking lot that nobody is in the building occupying?
Mr. Zimmer: We will be in the building, but it is in the corner of the parking lot right off of the kitchen. We would want to light it about 10:00 a.m., so by 11:00 a.m. if people want to migrate over to Papadeaux for the lunch hour, they are catching a whiff of that as they are walking in the door; and then again 5:00 p.m. or 6:00 p.m. at night and it would not be something that would be going continually all day long.
Mr. Galster: So if we limit the time and have someone in the building, so that we dont just have something hot out in the parking lot. In reference to the pylon sign, is it your intentions to use one of those panels on the pylon sign? I would like to make it a condition that you do.
Mr. Zimmer: Yes, sir. Tri-State Signs is doing the sign and I asked him for drawings to submit. When I negotiated the lease, I tried to get Papadeaux to move their second one down and they wouldnt do that.
Ms. McBride: The only question that I had relative to the smoker; what is to keep someone from touching it?
Mr. Zimmer: The wood is located on the bottom side of the smoker, and it would take a fairly unintelligent person to walk up and do that; I guess nothing.
Ms. McBride: Obviously it is not in a residential area where there are a lot of kids and they are going to touch it but I wanted to throw it out there for the Commission.
Mr. Galster: And that was what I was thinking, for the safety of having a burning barbeque out there and having someone out there in attendance; most people are not going to go up and touch it but at the same time if we are encouraging an outdoor hot item, do we need to protect it in any way?
Ms. McBride: Perhaps some caution hot signs.
Mr. Zimmer: I am sure there are a few people like that that exist.
Ms. Ghantous: You said it will be around 11:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. and 5:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m.?
Mr. Zimmer: Yes.
Ms. Ghantous: That is not a lot of time; do you have someone that could baby sit it?
Mr. Zimmer: Sure. I will be there everyday.
Ms. Ghantous: It is in your best interest, really and it is not a lot of time.
Mr. Okum: It should have a picket fence around it like we did for the Christmas tree surround at Tri-County Mall, for safety issues. I think the big thing is the liability falls on the applicant and he doesnt want to have a litigation or lawsuit against him for a child going up there and touching the thing and getting burned. I think, if it is protected, some method of safety is addressed to that unit; that is all we have to say.
Mr. Zimmer: What about caution tape?
Mr. Okum: I think that would look a little tacky and not very inviting. I thought one of those 3 picket fences and put it on some little supports. If you do man it then you dont have to worry about it at all. He has got the liability for someone getting injured or getting hurt so I am not going to be overly burdensome on it, does anybody feel we need that in the motion?
Mr. Galster: I am having a little bit of an issue; I dont have a problem if it is either being manned, as Ms. Ghantous recommended and used to create samples and/or a small barrier that would prevent somebody from getting too close to it. I dont think that is an unreasonable request.
Chairman Butrum: You are o.k. with a fence?
Mr. Zimmer: Sure.
Mr. Galster: Or man it and cook and do whatever.
Mr. Zimmer: Absolutely.
Mr. Darby: After the McDonalds coffee caper, things are so litigious so I can see some value in taking some precautions but I would encourage you to do it in such a way that it is thematic of what you are going to be doing; I cant see caution tape, that is too artificial but something that blends in to what you are going to be doing and ribs smell a lot better cooking than wood.
Chairman Butrum: When we allowed Papadeaux to put that second sign on the pylon, didnt we have some contingency; there was at least discussion that if another restaurant came I thought we said something along the lines that it needed to move down?
Mr. Galster: No, their second sign wasnt going to stop a fourth restaurant from having the ability to be on there. I dont know that it would look funny because the way that they did the two panels, they are tied together and have a very similar look.
Chairman Butrum: I think it would look better having them bookend, separate and apart.
Mr. Zimmer: There are a couple trees that are starting to sprout up there and starting to block that panel.
Chairman Butrum: My personal preference is that you would be right below the main Papadeaux sign. Another question; how far away would you have to be before you do not smell the smoke anymore, 100 feet?
Mr. Zimmer: I would say, yes. From my five years at Burbanks, I would say
100 feet to 150 feet. The thing to remember about a smoker is when I load wood into the smoker, when the meat inside the smoker crusts which normally takes about 90 minutes, then the smoke doesnt penetrate that meat anymore. When I smoke a pork butt I will do that at 9:00 p.m. and I will smoke that until 11:00 a.m. the next morning. The wood will go into the smoker at 9:00 p.m. and by 10:30 p.m. or
11:00 p.m. at the latest the wood has burned up and gone away; then it just becomes a rotisserie gas oven. We will smoke some during the day, ribs and other things during the day, but my experience is that when I would pull into Burbanks parking lot at 8:00 a.m. I could smell the pork but not the smoke.
Mr. Okum: I have been over in Sharonville and have eaten at the restaurants around Jim Dandys and you dont smell their smoker, at all. I would be interested in knowing where the prevailing wind goes.
Chairman Butrum: Typically west.
Mr. Okum: So it would go toward the garage.
Chairman Butrum: If there are no further questions I will entertain a motion.
Mr. Okum: I would like to move for approval for Minor Revisions to the PUD for signs and outdoor smoker for SmoQ, L.L.C. at 275 Pictoria Drive to include Staffs comments and recommendations also to include that the outdoor promotional portable smoker shall be permitted for 15 days prior to opening and 15 days after opening for a total of 30 days. It shall be surrounded by a safety enclosure and/or manned when hot. The applicant shall be required to occupy one space on the outdoor pylon sign and this space shall be limited to the permitted area by ordinance.
Mr. Darby seconded the motion and with six affirmative votes (one Member absent) the request was approved.
Chairman Butrum: When are you opening?
Mr. Zimmer: Mid-November.
Mr. McErlane: Currently our Zoning Code says that parking areas and access driveways have to be asphalt or concrete but it allows for pavers if approved by Planning Commission. The question I would like to propose to Planning Commission, because we have had some requests about residential driveways out of pavers, does Planning Commission want every residential driveway that they want to construct out of pavers to come in to Planning Commission for an approval or can you delegate that responsibility to the Building Department based upon some specifications and a cross-section that we put together? It would only apply to one and two family residence on private property, so it wouldnt be a section that would be permitted out in public right of way.
Mr. Galster: The only thing that concerns me is that when you start looking at pavers in residential use, I think we have to be careful that we are not talking about regular landscape pavers but these are actually vehicular traffic, sturdy pavers that are used as a way of having a pervious surface.
Mr. McErlane: There are standards for concrete and brick pavers that are actual pavers, as opposed to patio stones; they are referenced here ASTMC-936 is a concrete paver and the C-902 is a brick paver. There are specific requirements for the base depth and how it has to be compacted, as well as the sand bed. Typical minimum legitimate pavers are 2-3/8 but they come in 2-5/8 as well for heavy duty pavements.
Mr. Okum: Lets say that somebody wants to do a paver on concrete for a decorative feature on the driveway; we are not addressing that with this?
Mr. McErlane: No. If you look at paragraph B under the first section application, it does allow engineered systems to be submitted and approved.
Mr. Okum: Then that is o.k.
Chairman Butrum: I agree.
Mr. Okum: This is a sample of an approved system, because I see you have a 10 galvanized spike as a retainer, but there may be another retaining system that is more sophisticated than a 10 galvanized spike.
Mr. McErlane: If you look at the section on edge restraints, it says manufactured edge restraints shall be installed and anchored in accordance with the installation instructions because there are different edge restraint systems out there.
Mr. Okum: Does this allow for any pervious surface material; this is not really creating any pervious?
Mr. McErlane: It is pervious to a degree but not to a great degree. If you look at the next sub-paragraph below the zoning code requirements; it says residential driveways may be constructed with porous pavement at the discretion of the City Engineer.
Chairman Butrum: Any further questions or comments?
Mr. McErlane: The question I have for Planning Commission is if you feel you can delegate that to the Building Department, or if you think it is necessary to make a zoning code change to accomplish it?
Mr. Okum: I think it should go to the Building Department.
Chairman Butrum: I agree.
Mr. McErlane: I would caution you to not make this the required standard as part of your motion, just in case we need to change it for some reason. Basically it would say that they have to be constructed in accordance to the Citys specifications and if we have to change something or modify something we can do that.
Mr. Okum: Right; because technology changes and things change.
Chairman Butrum: I am good with that.
Mr. Okum: I would like to move that the Building Department and Staff be given the authority to approve a paver installation system for one and two family residential areas on private property.
Ms. Ghantous seconded the motion, and with six affirmative votes (one Member absent) the motion was approved.
IX. CHAIRMANS REPORT
Chairman Butrum: I approved one sign at Cincy Custom Carts, 12123 Princeton Pike.
Mr. Galster moved to adjourn; Ms. Ghantous seconded and with six aye
votes from the Planning Commission Members, the meeting adjourned at
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Chairman Tony Butrum
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Richard Bauer, Secretary